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EVO9 throttle hang issue.


k4nnon

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hey all, new G4X plun and play user. Had my first successful road test this morning and all is going well so far. i noticed the rpms seem to return to idle fairly slow. i tried making some adjustments with the idle stepper control tables and it wasnt making much of a difference. ill be learning how to use the software for a long while yet so figured i would post up and ask if anyone knows where or what to adjust so i can correct this issue quickly? thanks for any information..

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2 hours ago, Electredge said:

as soon as any of the tech ppl respond they will want a log and map posted.... but i'd potentially check the dashpot in the idle settings

Hey thanks for the response. I will check into that. If I need to post up a map/log I can do so. Thanks again. 

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3 hours ago, Adamw said:

Yeah, will need to see a log and the tune.  Most likely base position is too high or dashpot.  I have an Evo7 so I can probably give you some decent starting points once I see a log.  

Fellow evo information is always useful. I know the vehicles very very well just not as familiar with the in depth tuning and the new software. As far as log you want to see an actual playable log or just a screenshot of the stepper table or something? I believe my dashpot value is still set as it was at 0%. I appreciate all the information. So far this forum and its contributors have been extremely nice and helpful. 

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Hit F8 or mouse click the "PC Log = off" at the top right of your screen to start logging.  Record it idling for a while and some throttle blips or whatever is required to trigger the "throttle hang".   Hit F8 or mouse click PC Log = ON, to stop the log, then >Logging>save log file as.  Attach that file and a copy of the tune to this post.  

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On 5/3/2022 at 9:55 PM, Adamw said:

Hit F8 or mouse click the "PC Log = off" at the top right of your screen to start logging.  Record it idling for a while and some throttle blips or whatever is required to trigger the "throttle hang".   Hit F8 or mouse click PC Log = ON, to stop the log, then >Logging>save log file as.  Attach that file and a copy of the tune to this post.  

Hey thanks, I took a small log, not sure if any of the logged information is what you would like to see but it may get me in the right direction. I havent set up any specific logging functions yet so just going off what is set up to log by default. Vehicle idles decent, drives decent, been using the self tune feature and cruisng AFR is decent. I have not messed with trying to set up idle with ac on or any of that yet either.. Just trying t get this basic stuff correct one step at a time. Thanks for any information.

Warm Throttle blips. Stepper set up...llgx

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7 hours ago, k4nnon said:

Hey thanks, I took a small log, not sure if any of the logged information is what you would like to see but it may get me in the right direction. I havent set up any specific logging functions yet so just going off what is set up to log by default. Vehicle idles decent, drives decent, been using the self tune feature and cruisng AFR is decent. I have not messed with trying to set up idle with ac on or any of that yet either.. Just trying t get this basic stuff correct one step at a time. Thanks for any information.

Warm Throttle blips. Stepper set up...llgx 675.92 kB · 1 download

need to post a copy of the map/tune as well... only thing obvious I see currently is the idle status is not active at idle... MAP HOLD... 

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12 minutes ago, Electredge said:

need to post a copy of the map/tune as well... only thing obvious I see currently is the idle status is not active at idle... MAP HOLD... 

Hey thanks for chyming in on the topic. Newbie with the pclink stuff so ill actually have to figure out how to go about attatching a copy of the tune. Or is it just a copy of the saved file.. Car is barely tuned to a running state right now. Enough to cruise around, Most of the map is still the evo 9 Base map provided by link. The rest is set up for my specifics like injector data, stuff like that. Always appreciate the information and so bare with me while im a newbie in this process. Let me know any specific information you would like to see or know and ill try my best to provide...Thanks again.

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6 minutes ago, k4nnon said:

Hey thanks for chyming in on the topic. Newbie with the pclink stuff so ill actually have to figure out how to go about attatching a copy of the tune. Or is it just a copy of the saved file.. Car is barely tuned to a running state right now. Enough to cruise around, Most of the map is still the evo 9 Base map provided by link. The rest is set up for my specifics like injector data, stuff like that. Always appreciate the information and so bare with me while im a newbie in this process. Let me know any specific information you would like to see or know and ill try my best to provide...Thanks again.

top left - file -> save as..... name it and upload that

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Hey guys finally got a chance to take another log if you wanna look at it and see if you notice anything i need to change to correct my issue. Iv simplified and went to open loop idle control, this is only temporary and im not even sure its correct but its working for the time being. I still believe my stepper adjustments are probably incorrect or that an actual mechanical adjustment may be needed at the throttle stop screw. Either way thats why im on the forum, i hope to learn all this stuff with time but all help and guidance is appreciated.. This log is engine at temp. some slower throttle blips and then some faster throttle blips. Ill attatch a cope of te base tune as well. thankyou!!

 

Warm engine throttle blips hang issue..llgx Base Cal 4..pclx

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2 hours ago, k4nnon said:

Hey guys finally got a chance to take another log if you wanna look at it and see if you notice anything i need to change to correct my issue. Iv simplified and went to open loop idle control, this is only temporary and im not even sure its correct but its working for the time being. I still believe my stepper adjustments are probably incorrect or that an actual mechanical adjustment may be needed at the throttle stop screw. Either way thats why im on the forum, i hope to learn all this stuff with time but all help and guidance is appreciated.. This log is engine at temp. some slower throttle blips and then some faster throttle blips. Ill attatch a cope of te base tune as well. thankyou!!

 

Warm engine throttle blips hang issue..llgx 1.48 MB · 2 downloads Base Cal 4..pclx 461.56 kB · 1 download

try this

1996143128_BaseCal4 - mod.pclx

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3 hours ago, Electredge said:

Hey thanks! i loaded that base and it didnt start at first. I had to raise the stepper values at current engine temp to keep the car running. Once those were changed car idles a lot better now so something you changed for me worked well. Ill have to confirm the next time i try to start the car if it has idle issues because of the values i changed. Ill post up the file so you can see exactly what i had to change. If idle stays good ill consider that one step done,, Still noticed the slow rev fall issue. not sure if that was something you changed also or if it was just idle related. either way thanks again. progress!!..

base cal 4 test from forum..pclx

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14 minutes ago, k4nnon said:

Hey thanks! i loaded that base and it didnt start at first. I had to raise the stepper values at current engine temp to keep the car running. Once those were changed car idles a lot better now so something you changed for me worked well. Ill have to confirm the next time i try to start the car if it has idle issues because of the values i changed. Ill post up the file so you can see exactly what i had to change. If idle stays good ill consider that one step done,, Still noticed the slow rev fall issue. not sure if that was something you changed also or if it was just idle related. either way thanks again. progress!!..

base cal 4 test from forum..pclx 461.32 kB · 0 downloads

post up the log 

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18 hours ago, Electredge said:

post up the log 

Hey thanks will do. I may have to retract my previous post about idle being right. I dont think this is because of anything you changed in my base but because my stuff is soo far out of proper adjustment. So leaving work the car didnt want to start again, i had to play with the stepper adjustments to keep it running. once it was idling smooth and afr was decent i drove it home. Throttle hang seemed to be twice as bad this time around. On throttle lift the rpms would hang at like 2k for about 2 seconds before slowly falling back to rest. Also noticed the throttle wanted to dip below 1k to about 550 before recovering. This morning starting with a cold engine the car did not want to start on that base map so i had to go back to the previous map to get to work. With the engine at temp at work i flashed the map you gave again and car has smooth idle again as previous but will almost die if i blip the throttle. rpms go way down before recovering. ill post up the map file and a short log.

Also might worth noting that iv noticed my fan/fans seem to run all the time, this may be an invert adjustment that i need to correct but this may play into my initial idle set up strategy..

Another note for all who are helping,, Engine is fully built, so while trying to get my smooth idle and drive its probably needed to know that the cams are big gsc s3s. running a skunk2 intake manifold and a full blown 70mm throttle body, no idle speed screw just a mechanical throttle plate adjustment screw.

I wanted to add the above info in case this changes how i should be adjusting my idle in relation to engine vacuum that i am seeing.. 

Thanks to all for any input or advice!!

base cal 4 test from forum..pclx engine warm decent idle,.llgx

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The under shoot is mostly idle base position.  The base position is the position that the idle valve moves to when you are outside of idle conditions - the starting point from where closed loop takes over when idle conditions are met.  If you look at the pic below with it idling at the correct RPM when warm in closed loop the idle valve is sitting at 75%.  Yet in your map the base position table for that temp only had 65% in it - so when the idle meets all the lockout conditions the valve is too closed.  I have tweaked that base position table a bit.  

8QCHIrQ.png 

 

I think the "hang" or slow return to idle after a blip is just a bit too much advance around the 1500-2500RPM range in the main ign table.  So even with the throttle closed and the idle valve closed more than it should be, the engine is still making more torque than it needs.  I have dropped that back a bit in the attached map.  Increasing the idle base position may make this effect worse so we will just have to see.  

I have made a few other small changes.  You can see what I have changed by using the file compare function.  

For the Fans running all the time - the log shows all fan statuses as off so that suggests one of our active state settings is probably wrong.  Go to the engine fan settings and try changing the Aux 1 and Ign 4 active state settings to the opposite and see if one of those switches the fan/s off.  In my evo one aux is set to high and one is set to low - but mine is using a wire-in ECU so I dont remember how that compares to the plug-in.  

 

 

 

basecal4testfromforum V2.pclx

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39 minutes ago, Adamw said:

The under shoot is mostly idle base position.  The base position is the position that the idle valve moves to when you are outside of idle conditions - the starting point from where closed loop takes over when idle conditions are met.  If you look at the pic below with it idling at the correct RPM when warm in closed loop the idle valve is sitting at 75%.  Yet in your map the base position table for that temp only had 65% in it - so when the idle meets all the lockout conditions the valve is too closed.  I have tweaked that base position table a bit.  

8QCHIrQ.png 

 

I think the "hang" or slow return to idle after a blip is just a bit too much advance around the 1500-2500RPM range in the main ign table.  So even with the throttle closed and the idle valve closed more than it should be, the engine is still making more torque than it needs.  I have dropped that back a bit in the attached map.  Increasing the idle base position may make this effect worse so we will just have to see.  

I have made a few other small changes.  You can see what I have changed by using the file compare function.  

For the Fans running all the time - the log shows all fan statuses as off so that suggests one of our active state settings is probably wrong.  Go to the engine fan settings and try changing the Aux 1 and Ign 4 active state settings to the opposite and see if one of those switches the fan/s off.  In my evo one aux is set to high and one is set to low - but mine is using a wire-in ECU so I dont remember how that compares to the plug-in.  

 

 

 

basecal4testfromforum V2.pclx 461.27 kB · 0 downloads

I didn't have a chance to screenshot this but the way he has the stepper reset counter isn't how I normally see it done, and if its changed to reset on the off ignition then the ecu hold settings need to be adjusted to keep power while it counts down.... this one thing could be causing the differing idle settings as well as the no start if he is just cranking it up immediately like 95% of the ppl do :D

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5 hours ago, Electredge said:

but the way he has the stepper reset counter isn't how I normally see it done

Its changed a bit compared to how it used to work in the older ECU's.  "Key-on Fuel lockout" means the ecu will not inject fuel (ie engine wont start) until the stepper has reset to the start up position. 

The "Key off" option keeps the ecu alive after ignition off to reset the stepper ready for next start up then (even if keep alive time = 0, ecu wont turn off until stepper reset is finished)  This is the preferable option for the plug-in's since they have all the ecu hold power circuit taken care off.  

So either of these options should still work ok and reset the stepper before start up - just the key-on fuel lockout option potentially means a longer startup.  

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Hey guys I appreciate the continued effort in trying to help me solve my issues. I think we are headed in the right direction. I wont have a chance to try out that last map for a few days because of weather but i will let you know how it ends up. I think i did change my stepper reset to key on fuel lockout and i dont mind the longer start times if its a more accurate way of resetting the stepper. I did notice that the last few times the car has started up, it seemed to warm up and set itself at a good consistent idle without me having to adjust anything. Even driveabiity in closed loop the cars drives very smooth so far so im excited for getting everything set up properly! Again thanks for everything so far it has all been a big help.

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New developments in this department.... Soo I finally got a chance to try that revised map. After letting the vehicle sit in the garage for a couple days. I took a log of the startup and full warm up. The car started and idled very very well. The whole warm up phase was just about perfect other then AFR was slightly. Thats an easy fix, but idle was great and stable as it came up to temp. Probably the best its ever been so far. I wanted to take seperate logs to post up of warm up, and driving. Heres where it gets weird. After the warm up log, I didnt shut off the car, obviously the car was up to temp and i was on m y way to work so i left. I messed up and did not take the first driving log. I wanted to take a log of th next key cycle to see if anything changed..  SOO I left my driveway and drove up to the store to get a coffee.. The car drove absolutely great!!!! AFR still needed adjusted, it was slightly rich but fine, The car returned to idle well and stable, it sounded smooth, My throttle hang issue was about gone. It felt right with driving. I stopped to get a coffee, I did not change the map, I dont think i made any adjustments to it other then maybe a slight VE adjustment in the fuel map to get afr better. On the second start up the car did not want to idle properly. Idle would hunt up and down pretty dramatically, cruising was not smooth at all compared to the first drive, it was like a totally different map. its soo confusing. I made it to work and shut the car down. Reloaded the same map and started up the car again with similar issues, The idle seemed slightly more stable this time around, This time i took a log. I took the car for a short drive around the block and driveability was off again and the rev hang issue was crazy long this time as can be seen in the logs.. Ill post up everything. But the very first start, warm up, and road test were about perfect, if i could get back to that and continue my tuning from there that would be awesome!!

I want to add this,,, on the second start, after the awesome first road test.. The ecu did not connect to my computer and i got a message saying, failed connection and that the ecu was now running in boot mode. Iv had this happen before and all i did was hit connect to ecu button and car connected to the computer. I dont know if this has any relation to how the car was running or not..

Thanks all for any input, I still think you guys are on the right track as far as helping me out and hopefully soon ill know and understand enough to make my own adjustments, Im just a bit confused right now as far as what is changing or effecting how the car runs between key cycles..

hot restart idle.llgx

I actually dont have enough space to post up anymore log files.. Do i need to delete files from this post in order to free up more space for posting or do i need to start a new topic post? Id like to post up my warm up map and cruise map if I can. 

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13 hours ago, Adamw said:

use something like googledrive/onedrive/dropbox or similar, upload your files to that then get a share link and paste here.

Thanks ill download something today. I tried the previous revised map again hoping for great cold start and first drive and it was way off this morning. Idle jumped to 3k and stayed there until I changed it to lower it. I went back to a previous drivable map that seems to work decent for the time being. I noticed something and iv seen this mentioned in other places,, The evo 9 stepper tables are in reverse from the previous versions. I even went and checked the provided base maps to confirm the tables in the 9 map go from low to high. Is this possibly why im having issues. My table goes as an earlier version evo would have and numbers go higher to lower.. Ill find time to post up a recent log and a map. Thanks for all the help!

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9 hours ago, k4nnon said:

The evo 9 stepper tables are in reverse from the previous versions.

This changed from G4+ to G4X.  

With a stepper motor idle valve the "home position" is fully open.  So in the older G4+ ecu when using a stepper motor the number in the base position table represented "steps from fully open".  i.e. a smaller number is more open.  However, a solenoid type idle vale the home position is closed - so in G4+ the numbers in the base position table when using a solenoid valve represented "percentage open" so effectively worked in reverse to a stepper.  This obviously was not particularly intuitive.

So in G4X we changed this convention by adding a "max steps" setting and doing a bit more math in the background to make it more logical.  The G4X base position table now always represents "percentage open" regardless of the type of valve.  This means a bigger number is always more open and now the same table can be used regardless of idle valve type - a solenoid or stepper will all have a base position table that works in the same way.   

Your MAP attached above is correct with larger numbers/more open when cold

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UPDATES,, For all who have contributed to my idle issues.. Im probably screwing myself over in some way by not understanding or having an adjustment way out of whack to where i am unsuccessful. Some days i ca get te car to idle and drive great, but it almost changes every key cycle and i have to adjust everything again to keep the car running smoothly. I figure i need to start from the beginning.

New update, which probably isnt helping,, Iv switched back to E85 fuel. Tested the content and it is currently E80. Hoping the content goes up slightly as we get further into summer. Iv been messing with the idle tables in open loop only but the few times i had the car running in closed loop mode the car did idle better and smoother. somehow i messed that up and was unable to get back to a happy place. SO open loop for now. I also jacked somethng up the other day to where my calues in the table were all 100 just to keep the engine from stalling out. When the car seems to be happy at 185 degreees F, the table value is anywhere from 55-60. But this again is only until i start the car again and it seems off. Assuming my stepper motor is soo far out that the numbers are never really close. I may try to start from ground zero and follow the open loop idle set up procedure in the instructions. Question about this,,,, Do i need to somehow reset the stepper to a full open or full closed position before even starting?  I noticed the other day when i switched the idle control to off it zereod out my table but the car stayed running perfectly fine but then made my adjustment numbers funky.. Also noticed when the car is idling smooth and i then unplug the stepper completely it stays running as it was.  I assume this is because the stepper stays at is current position state.

I almost feel like i need to completely zero out my stepper to its max closed position before i start making any adjustments in the tables so tat y numbers are accurate.. Does all of this sound right?? Also with all of that said, as far as my mechanical set screw on my throttle body, is there a way i need to set this before i even start with the stepper tables? My brain tells me that the car should be capable of running without dying when the stepper is completely closed, this would mean a mechanical adjustment of the set screw before hand. Anyways i think im going to start at square one. I know logs and maps are always informative to anyone who stops by but im going to start at the beginning with those also.

Thanks for any input or information, this forum has been extremely helpful so far and im learning a lot!

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It may be worth pulling the stepper and watching it home with key on or off depending on how you have it set.  If it's reliably doing the same thing every time or or not.  If it reliably resets every time it shouldn't vary so much unless you are coincidentally also getting changes in load or air flow at the same time as you're trying to dial idle in.

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