Group N style Antilag/Cyclic idle.

[k4nnon]

Hey all, its been a minute. Link G4X PnP for 06' Evo IX. So im in process of getting some Group N style antilag working in my car and im having some setup issues. Probably because im just unfamilliar with the tuning/settings of it. First things first,, I have modified my Full Blown 70mm throttle body with a bracket and a screw basically, for a manual kicker adjustment. This means i actually have to go under the hood and turn the screw until it bottoms out on the bracket. I have this set to open the throttle plate exactly 20%. Ill post a link to pictures for anyone who wants to see how iv modified the throttle body cam and the bracket and screw. Now I tried to test this with cyclic idle this morning and the car would fire up and almost die instantly as if the cyclic idle is working but i dont have something set up correctly to where it stays running. Also i have not made any real adjustments to the map other than turn antilag ON with cyclic idle always on. Cyclic idle low limit was at 22 and high limit was at 24. These were just random values to see if the car would fire up. Fail.. So if anyone has any further input as to what i may be doing wrong i would appreciate the help as always.

Another note, and this may be the issue.. I know antilag and lauch control cannot be active at the same time, I did have my launch control turned on while i did my tests and didnt remember until after i deemed it unsuccessful. If i turn off my launch control would it allow something different to operate?

Another basic question that may be in relation,,, with the throttle kicked open at say 20%, with everything working as should. Should i be able to start the car from off with the throttle kicked and cyclic idle on and working? or does the car have to be running and then the throttle kicked and cyclic idle turned on?

As soon as successful stationary testing is done i will be adding a vacuum pump to keep power brakes and setting this up to be fully functional antilag. Thanks again for any input!!!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ctVovrKJeoLEI08LdHJdPDSUOxaj20xI?usp=sharing

 

[KennyJ]

whats the point of the setup with the screw?

i mostly set up cars with manual throttle bodys and i always crack open the throttle a bit with the factory bolt (rpm on idle +-4000 rpm)
reset tps 0-100 point 
activate ignition idle map with value somewhere between -5° and -25° so idle is at 1200-1300 rpm and go from there

that way there plenty of fresh air to make the AL agressive enough

AL activates with rpm and Tps % and a DI , 

that way you dont have to alter anything under the bonnet and the car drives nice

[k4nnon]

1 hour ago, KennyJ said:

whats the point of the setup with the screw?

i mostly set up cars with manual throttle bodys and i always crack open the throttle a bit with the factory bolt (rpm on idle +-4000 rpm)
reset tps 0-100 point 
activate ignition idle map with value somewhere between -5° and -25° so idle is at 1200-1300 rpm and go from there

that way there plenty of fresh air to make the AL agressive enough

AL activates with rpm and Tps % and a DI , 

that way you dont have to alter anything under the bonnet and the car drives nice

Hey thanks for the input. I could adjust with the factory bolt but its really a pain to get to and adjust, that was actually my first attempts. i replaced the existing throttle stop bolt with a longer one and it was just too much of a pain to adjust. So i made the bracket and screw to do the same job but is much easier to get to. I also didnt want to go with an electric throttle, I tried to find and purchase the vacuum actuated kickers but they are almost non existent nowdays. I figured the manual setup that i have created will operate the same but will just take a little extra effort to adjust by going under the hood and screwing it open. On the plus side i dont have to recalibrate the tps every time because it still has its original stop. Screw all the way in is 20%, all the way out is on the original stop so sensor stays calibrated at 0.

I understand what you are saying about how you set up the cars with the manual stop though. Thankyou, that information is helpful. I did notice a mistake i had made earlier and i will make a change and attempt again when i get another chance to do so.

Thanks again for the input!!!

[Adamw]

I have only ever used it with a kicker that is enabled after starting, but I would expect it should still work the way you have - possibly just more difficult to start.  

Will need a log and your tune.  The tune you have in the google link does not even have ALS set up.  

[k4nnon]

16 hours ago, Adamw said:

I have only ever used it with a kicker that is enabled after starting, but I would expect it should still work the way you have - possibly just more difficult to start.  

Will need a log and your tune.  The tune you have in the google link does not even have ALS set up.  

Hey Adam thanks for the input. It is confirmed that the car starts and runs with the throttle kicked from an off position. I was able to get the car running and operational but I would like someone to check my settings and confirm that seems to be correct. First thing I noticed, and this may just be the nature of operation,, but the afr is extremely lean. I assume this is the o2 sensor reading the intentional misfire caused with cyclic idle. If this is something that needs adjusted im not sure where to do so. I tried the antilag trim table as well as adding fuel in my standard map and afr stayed lean. Second thing is if i stab the throttle, the rpms want to run away all the way to redline even with release of the throttle, i have to shut off the car with the key to shut it down. so i need to figure out what needs adjusted there. And a final thing i noticed which again might just be the nature of operation, im hearing some backfire/popping through the intake, is this a normal cyclic idle thing or not. Thanks again for the help. Ill post up a link to a log,map,video of it running. My log does shop the rpm runaway at the end also.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ctVovrKJeoLEI08LdHJdPDSUOxaj20xI?usp=sharing

18 hours ago, KennyJ said:

Hey I have an update and was able to get the car idling. Its working but needs some fixing to make right. The details are in the previous reply to Adam. I also posted a link to a log, my map, and a video of it operating. I you guys have any suggestions or input on how this is doing or what needs adjusted i appreciate it. Thanks again!

 

[k4nnon]

!!!!! Just thought of something that might relate to my rpms wanting to run away. I did not recalibrate my TPS after I kicked the throttle open. Am I supposed to set this as the new 0% after I have the throttle kicked open? Or do I leave it as it was calibrated before kicking the throttle open?? Thanks all.

[KennyJ]

yes when you're opening the throttle tps is no longer 0% and dependent on what you have setup it will go into "driving" (thats why i used the idle ignition to tamper it down) you may find the car feels like the throttle is stuck when driving , some really low numbers in vacuum will solve that

please note i'm doing competition rally cars , not street cars 

[k4nnon]

15 minutes ago, KennyJ said:

yes when you're opening the throttle tps is no longer 0% and dependent on what you have setup it will go into "driving" (thats why i used the idle ignition to tamper it down) you may find the car feels like the throttle is stuck when driving , some really low numbers in vacuum will solve that

please note i'm doing competition rally cars , not street cars 

Hey thanks again! I appreciate the info and I would rather hear from someone who actually has the experience of setting up competition vehicles vs just street vehicles. Thats what it is designed for so thats how I would like it to be set up. Im understanding it so far but still learning how and whereto adjust things. So your saying that I need to recalibrate the tps after I have the throttle plate kicked open? Basically telling the link that this is my new 0% throttle position, and go from there? I have not tried this yet but it makes sense, could be why the engine wanted to run away when I stabbed the throttle also. 

[Adamw]

Typically with this type of strategy you wouldnt re-zero the TPS, idle would just be at 20% TP or whatever you have it at.  Although it wouldnt really matter if you re-zeroed, as long as the cyclic high and low are set to match it should work either way I think.

The reason for your RPM runaway is you dont have any antilag cut/retard set up.  You currently have your AL enable set at 3000RPM & 50% TP, so when you blipped your throttle both of these conditions were met so cyclic turns off and antilag activates.  The antilag is set to stay active for 5 secs after these conditions are no longer met.  You dont have any antilag cuts or retard set up so with 20% throttle, no cuts and no retard then it is going to rev high.  

[kaptainballistik]

On another well known Rally ECU, The way to pull the Idle down with a Group N car is you wind back the advance.

20% is still an awful lot. of opening!

[Adamw]

3 hours ago, kaptainballistik said:

The way to pull the Idle down with a Group N car is you wind back the advance

Not sure that is a good idea, your EGT is often already say 900°C after antilag, retarding ign is going to make it hotter...

The whole idea of cyclic idle is to cool the system down, not just to achieve a lower idle speed.  So with a large throttle opening and fuel cut on each cylinder in a cyclic pattern you get a large volume of cool air pumped through the manifold each cycle.  Even with antilag systems that dont use a fixed throttle stop and could idle on their own without cyclic, it is still common to keep the throttle open and use cyclic for a cool down period at the end of the stage.

 

[k4nnon]

14 hours ago, Adamw said:

Typically with this type of strategy you wouldnt re-zero the TPS, idle would just be at 20% TP or whatever you have it at.  Although it wouldnt really matter if you re-zeroed, as long as the cyclic high and low are set to match it should work either way I think.

The reason for your RPM runaway is you dont have any antilag cut/retard set up.  You currently have your AL enable set at 3000RPM & 50% TP, so when you blipped your throttle both of these conditions were met so cyclic turns off and antilag activates.  The antilag is set to stay active for 5 secs after these conditions are no longer met.  You dont have any antilag cuts or retard set up so with 20% throttle, no cuts and no retard then it is going to rev high.  

Thanks Adam all of this makes sense. I have not input any values into the maps to see how it effects things. This was just a first time stationary test to see if the system would operate and run with cyclic idle. It does work so now I can start inputting values into the map and check functionality. Ill probably start with a softer version of the example maps that Link provides in the help section and go from there. Thanks again for the input! All is helpful.

[k4nnon]

Would this be a more typical operating map? Also in the fuel trim table,, Will I be able to see my actual lambda values or will this still read lean because of the antilag/cyclic operation. I still havent figured out if my lean afr with cyclic idle is normal or if i need to be adding more fuel. My lambda reads antilag lockout and my other wideband sensor just pegs 20.0 AFR. Thanks again for everything.. Really loving the support from everyone contributing to this forum..

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ctVovrKJeoLEI08LdHJdPDSUOxaj20xI?usp=sharing

11 hours ago, kaptainballistik said:

On another well known Rally ECU, The way to pull the Idle down with a Group N car is you wind back the advance.

20% is still an awful lot. of opening!

Hey thanks for your input. Its nice to know there are multiple ways of doing things in the motorsport world!!

Edited October 27, 2022 by k4nnon
added a link.

[Adamw]

Yes that set up looks more normal.  Lambda is no use during any limiter or misfire. 

[kaptainballistik]

17 hours ago, Adamw said:

Not sure that is a good idea, your EGT is often already say 900°C after antilag, retarding ign is going to make it hotter...

The whole idea of cyclic idle is to cool the system down, not just to achieve a lower idle speed.  So with a large throttle opening and fuel cut on each cylinder in a cyclic pattern you get a large volume of cool air pumped through the manifold each cycle.  Even with antilag systems that dont use a fixed throttle stop and could idle on their own without cyclic, it is still common to keep the throttle open and use cyclic for a cool down period at the end of the stage.

 

Oh, I'm DEFINETLY NOT saying its a good idea. I've got a nice pile of Fairly expensive Twinscroll Subaru headers that have twisted exhaust flanges and blown out flex joints from when my STi was a group N car... Even with Cyclic Idle the solution was turn down the Antilag.... Or bin the exhaust after 500 stage km...

Or Stump up for a V36, which solved it

 

[k4nnon]

15 hours ago, Adamw said:

Yes that set up looks more normal.  Lambda is no use during any limiter or misfire. 

Hey thanks again. Thats kind of what I figured. Makes sense, a lot more air and fuel cut will read lean. I will not have a chance to test the operation of that new map for a few days but I will post if it seems to solve some of my issues. Next issue I will need to address is the power brakes. Ill be researching and installing an electric vacuum pump to supply the booster and setting this to run when antilag/cyclicis active. Thanks again..

[k4nnon]

On 10/27/2022 at 4:15 PM, Adamw said:

Yes that set up looks more normal.  Lambda is no use during any limiter or misfire. 

Hey Adam I got a chance to see how that map operates and I would like opinions on how it seems to act. I dont have a log yet but I have a short clip video. Map is the same as previous posted but ill add that as well. Please let me know if theres any particular adjustments I should be making to fuel or timing or if its just going to take playing around with from her on out.. Thanks again for the help. 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ctVovrKJeoLEI08LdHJdPDSUOxaj20xI?usp=share_link

On 10/26/2022 at 2:20 PM, k4nnon said:

Hey thanks again! I appreciate the info and I would rather hear from someone who actually has the experience of setting up competition vehicles vs just street vehicles. Thats what it is designed for so thats how I would like it to be set up. Im understanding it so far but still learning how and whereto adjust things. So your saying that I need to recalibrate the tps after I have the throttle plate kicked open? Basically telling the link that this is my new 0% throttle position, and go from there? I have not tried this yet but it makes sense, could be why the engine wanted to run away when I stabbed the throttle also. 

Hey would you check and give me your opinion on my progress with this as well please. My previous post has a link to the current map and a short video of its operation. Would like opinions on how its doing as of now and what may need adjusted for the better. Thanks again for the input.

[Adamw]

Sounds like it is working at least.  The behavior will be quite different when the manifold is glowing and generally the limitation in how aggresive you can go is how confident the driver is with the pushing effect, so you really need to see how it feels driving now.

[k4nnon]

15 hours ago, Adamw said:

Sounds like it is working at least.  The behavior will be quite different when the manifold is glowing and generally the limitation in how aggresive you can go is how confident the driver is with the pushing effect, so you really need to see how it feels driving now.

sounds good! Ill see how it feels driving and post up if i have any further questions! Thanks again.

[tbase]

What's the Lambda on Cylcic idle are supposed to be? When I active it runs very lean around 1.4-1.9 swing up and down, if I have to keep it run around 1.0 I have to add 60% the fuel trim which I don't think its normal.

[Adamw]

Lambda is irrelevant when you have a cut active, you have raw oxygen pumping through the exhaust system.  

[k4nnon]

7 hours ago, tbase said:

What's the Lambda on Cylcic idle are supposed to be? When I active it runs very lean around 1.4-1.9 swing up and down, if I have to keep it run around 1.0 I have to add 60% the fuel trim which I don't think its normal.

Hey I had this question a while back also and its not really a concern. Your lambda reading will read very lean while cyclic idle is working. This is because the ecu is cutting fuel completely to each cylinder in a specific sequence to keep the idle down. No fuel will will mean that only oxygen will pass through the cylinder and into the exhaust, the o2 sensor will read this as an extremely lean mixture. If your idle map is good when cyclic idle is off then you can assume this is the lambda reading to each cylinder that is getting fuel when cyclic idle is working. Pay attention to antilag lambda reading when out of cyclic idle range though because you will not want that reading to be lean. It should read comparable to where it is normally with boost slightly rich 10-11 afr or .800-.850 lambda. Hope that helps understand that a bit better.

[DenisAlmos]

@k4nnon can you give more informations on how you get out of cyclic idle?

Is your cyclic idle temporary after an anti-lag session?

From the pics you have on your Drive, I understend you are mecanically openning throttle for anti-lag. Is your normal idle ignition based with small throttle openning?

[k4nnon]

On 5/28/2023 at 2:34 PM, DenisAlmos said:

@k4nnon can you give more informations on how you get out of cyclic idle?

Is your cyclic idle temporary after an anti-lag session?

From the pics you have on your Drive, I understend you are mecanically openning throttle for anti-lag. Is your normal idle ignition based with small throttle openning?

Hey, sorry i havent been on here much lately. Are you asking how i turn the antilag off? Like completely off or how it operates after use on a course? Ill try to answer both. Im still learning this antilag function stuff myself but the way i have my stuff set up is as simple as possible. Meaning my system is a manual ON/OFF system. If i want the system on and working I manually crank the throttle kicker down to open my throttle plate to 20%. Then I have a seperate "Antilag" map that i flash into the computer. I then have a rotary type switch that i use for a map 1 and two selection while on my antilag map. My map1 is cyclic idle on with antilag disarmed, so i can drive the car as normal without having the system create boost but the cyclic idle is always on. My map 2 is system armed to work as intended. So say i have an autox day that i want to use antilag. Ill drive the car as normal to the course, do all my prep work and turn in my throttle kicker, flash the antilag map with map1 selected and make sure all is functioning properly. Ill drive like that to the staging area and then flip my switch to map2 and run the course, then back to map1 while coming back to park. Then all back to normal before i drive home. Also to note while my antilag map is running, I have a vacuum pump and vacuum canister to create and hold some vacuum for the power brakes. I just have my vacuum pump set to run constantly while in antilag map. If you would like more info on how i did this let me know and ill tell you how i did it. Hope that answered some questions. Please let me know if you would like to know more Thanks.

[DenisAlmos]

If I understand right you are not able to change your throttle kicker on and off from the cabin.

Another French GC8 GrA owner sent me pics of this installation and he is using suspension cable command locker for mountain bike to activate or not the throttle kicker. I’m gonna try to set this system on my GrA and was just looking for more examples.

Here is the suspension cable command locker:  https://www.decathlon.fr/p/poploc-suntour-noir/_/R-p-187051?mc=8399892

Also, I noted with throttle always open, idle is too high to be controlled by ignition. Cyclic idle is necessary.