Moonsoon on a 4age 20v... Now running!

[koracing]

AEM 30-0310 is an inline wideband controller without gauge and is pretty readily available if it comes down to a crunch for time and it and can do analog or CAN to the Link.  Have tuned many cars with it and it's usually within a few percent of my dyno wideband.  Any wideband will last a bit longer if you make it so that it only powers on after the engine fires - you can use a relay to power it triggered by an output on the ecu or by the fuel pump trigger if you don't have spare outputs.  This helps to prevent thermal shock from cold cranking fuel and water/condensation from hitting an already hot sensor.

[deltakatsu]

I should follow up on this. I got the car road tuned with help from my Link supplier. I then drove it to the dyno for a spin. He had some trouble with the engine staying too cold (it was a very chilly day, and I probably have a bad tstat), but was able to get it tuned and enclosed is the comparison to the OEM ECU (lighter gray line). It feels about the same on the low end, but it absolutely screams once it gets past 5k.

However, in the 1000 miles I've driven it since, I've lost two Bosch widebands. I have an appointment next week to get the downpipe rebuilt. The wideband looks like it's just a hair higher than 9 o'clock, and it's about four inches from the 2-1 in my manifold, so the plan is to move it further down the pipe and get it up to 10 or 2 o'clock. Hopefully that fixes it, or else I need to look into alternative controllers, which is a bit of a stretch with my budget right now.

[Adamw]

It is not your lambda probe location that is causing the sensor life issue, it is the curse called innovate.  The lsu4.9 is rated for something like 930degC continuous egt, so temp in a NA exhaust isn’t going to bother it.    Innovate use the sensor in a completely different way electronically than they were ever designed to be, as soon as the sensor response slows down a little their measurement strategy which requires accurate signal timing can no longer work, so you just get the infamous error 8 or error 2.   
Keep your “failed” sensors as 99% of the time they won’t be and will work perfectly fine in any other controller that is not innovate.

 

[deltakatsu]

I got my pipe checked out and there was a multitude of issues.

The pipe had a leak, and when the welder took it off, there was a decent amount of moisture in it. I got the wideband mount corrected for depth and angle (It was also too far backed out, so it wasn't sticking in the pipe enough).

Also got a Spartan 3 Lite with a Bosch LSU ADV wired in. It seems to be reading well, but the ADV is firing up immediately. I've got a UART -> USB adapter on order so I can adjust it to delayed start.

 

I did have a question: I was looking over the dyno tuner's file and noticed he has lambda set to stoich. Do I want to stick with that over auto? The helpfile makes auto sound better, but is there a reason to stick with using the AFR table via stoich wideband mode?

[Adamw]

No, you definitely want auto mode.  Stoich wideband mode I would typically only use for applications where the lambda needs to be constantly cycled rich/lean for catalytic converter efficiency.

[deltakatsu]

On 4/29/2023 at 2:59 AM, Adamw said:

No, you definitely want auto mode.  Stoich wideband mode I would typically only use for applications where the lambda needs to be constantly cycled rich/lean for catalytic converter efficiency.

How does it benefit the catalytic to run on Stoich?

[koracing]

I would assume because leaner mixtures can keep the catalyst hotter and so make it work better.  By intermittently going lean it can keep the cat temp up.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, koracing said:

I would assume because leaner mixtures can keep the catalyst hotter and so make it work better.  By intermittently going lean it can keep the cat temp up.

From memory it is actually because the CAT is better at removing one kind of emission when lean and a different kind when rich and so oscillating either side is the most efficient place for the CAT to be.

[deltakatsu]

I see. Thank you for the insights on it!

Between this and figuring out how to write to the Spartan 3's UART, I've got some futzing ahead of me.

[Adamw]

10 hours ago, deltakatsu said:

How does it benefit the catalytic to run on Stoich

Modern "3 way" cats have a couple of reactions going on; 1. Oxidation of carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon in to carbon dioxide, 2. Reduction of Nitrogen oxides to nitrogen.  There are 2 different catalyst materials to generate these reactions.  When the mixture is slightly rich you have less oxygen in the exhaust gas so reduction by the reduction catalyst can happen quicker, also when running rich the engine produces less NOx at the same time, so you convert the NOx very quickly when slightly rich. When it is running slightly rich the oxidising catalyst is still doing some oxidation of the CO and HC but not very efficiently and it is depleting the oxygen it has "stored", so the ecu then switches to slightly lean, you now have more oxygen, the oxidation process accelerates and the catalyst can replenish its stored oxygen.  This switching or dithering usually happens about 2-4 times a second at idle.

[deltakatsu]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:59 AM, Adamw said:

Modern "3 way" cats have a couple of reactions going on; 1. Oxidation of carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon in to carbon dioxide, 2. Reduction of Nitrogen oxides to nitrogen.  There are 2 different catalyst materials to generate these reactions.  When the mixture is slightly rich you have less oxygen in the exhaust gas so reduction by the reduction catalyst can happen quicker, also when running rich the engine produces less NOx at the same time, so you convert the NOx very quickly when slightly rich. When it is running slightly rich the oxidising catalyst is still doing some oxidation of the CO and HC but not very efficiently and it is depleting the oxygen it has "stored", so the ecu then switches to slightly lean, you now have more oxygen, the oxidation process accelerates and the catalyst can replenish its stored oxygen.  This switching or dithering usually happens about 2-4 times a second at idle.

Thank you for the breakdown on this. I checked and it looks like the tuner did set up the Auto Mode's tables, so I'm thinking it should be okay to run, just not sure why it was switched to Stoich.

 

Also, he's got it locked out at anything over 50% throttle or 4500RPM, which seems really low for an engine that revs to around 8400.

[koracing]

Most off boost driving will be below 4500 - though I personally usually run that up to 6000 because I like to make sure the tune is reasonable if I stay in 1st gear to 30mph, lol.  Just because the closed loop isn't doing stuff above 50% throttle or 4500 rpm in your case, it doesn't mean the ecu wasn't actually tuned there.  If you run outside of those closed loop limits and see a problem in a datalog - then those areas of fueling should be corrected in the tune.

[DerekAE86]

Do you mind sharing your tune file now? I'm curious what another 4AGE 20v looks like as I have my doubts the tuner I took mine to really knew a lot about these engines or the Link.

[deltakatsu]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:26 PM, DerekAE86 said:

Do you mind sharing your tune file now? I'm curious what another 4AGE 20v looks like as I have my doubts the tuner I took mine to really knew a lot about these engines or the Link.

Sorry, the Dyno tune is under an NDA.

Earlier I have my road tune posted which may help you out, but it runs rich.

------

Separately, I've got my Spartan 3 installed, and it seems to be playing nice with the Link.

Gonna try and futz my way through Termite and change it to heated start, instead of delayed start.

[DerekAE86]

19 hours ago, deltakatsu said:

Earlier I have my road tune posted which may help you out, but it runs rich.

I was looking at that one but was kinda confused with the setup since the fuel setup was set to Traditional and Load=MAP which the help file recommends not doing for a ITB engine as the MAP signal is usually quite poor.
Adding onto that the Fuel table was TPS referenced, but Ignition table was MAP referenced.
The Injection timing 3D table was very strange to. Since it was referenced to VVT activation, but in state "1" or "2", meaning it would never be in an "0"/"off" state. Plus the injection angles were all over the place too. Even dropping to 0deg at 5000rpm+.

There also seemed to be VVT settings from a 3SGE still particually configured under VVT control.
And even boost control options enabled - but looking at your dyno result it seems this is a NA engine?

Was curious if there was method behind all this - or just a incomplete base setup.
 

[koracing]

17 hours ago, deltakatsu said:

Sorry, the Dyno tune is under an NDA.

I can only assume the wizard that tuned your car needed you to sign an NDA as he will later market his breakthrough and amass a fortune in tuning with the new innovative technique he used.