4AGE G4X Atom X install and parts ordering information request

[dangero]

I have ordered a G4X Atom X for a race car build and the car currently has no wiring at all. Car weighs 490 kg's and not aiming for the moon in terms of power. Reliability will be the key.

Engine specifications are:

4AGE 16V, bigport head, forged internals, GT2554R turbo

I will be running the following configuration

4AGE distributor 24/4 tooth 3 wire (will cut off 3 teeth)
Denso injectors part no: 19500-2610 - 460cc
Denso coilpacks part number 90919-D2239
standard bigport plenum - standard TPS

I have ordered a kit from MRP that includes the ECU, prebuilt 4AGE loom and the following sensors
air intake temp sensor 1/8 NPT
water temp sensor 1/8 BSP
3 bar map sensor

https://www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/ae86-4age-link-atomx-g4-kit/

Things I need information are as follows:

Innovative MTX-L wideband, Can the analogue output be used for auto correction on the fuel tables?

I would also like to implement the following can you please comment on best options/if possible?

Oil pressure sensor - Id like to connect oil pressure sensor to the ECU. will any electronic sensor work? what are the best options?

Knock sensor - anything easy and off the shelf? cost effective options?

Boost solenoid - Can the ECU effectively control a solenoid for boost control? I will be maxing out the turbo and only shooting for 270 engine HP but may want to taper boost spool and have a low boost setting.

Speed sensor - May not be required but may need to pull this data out of the ECU for a digital dash

Fuel pump switching/voltage reduction - Bit of a newb question but can I use an ECU output to feed power to a solenoid to drive the fuel pump?

Can I program knock timing reduction and low oil pressure cutout?

CANbus to OBD2 - I have a cheap but very effective OBD2 display. I'd like to use this as a dash replacement. Is there an off the shelf CANbus to OBS2 solution? I have seen the AEM unit that appears to be what I am looking for.

https://www.carmodsaustralia.com.au/obdii-can-plug-play-adaptor-harness

 

Many thanks in advance! first new project in over 15 years and I am a bit out of the loop!

 

 

 

[Adamw]

The Atom only has 3 analog inputs, you need 2 for TPS and MAP, leaving only one spare.  So you have to choose between the Innovate or the Oil press sensor.  Personally since the innovate controllers are POS, I would use the analog input for oil press and get a CAN bus lambda controller.  

 

2 hours ago, dangero said:

Oil pressure sensor

Avoid the oil school VDO style single or two-wire ones.  Avoid the cheap Chinese/generic/no-brand ones as well as anything that looks identical but someone has just put their label on it.  I know of at least one car locally that caught fire from one of these unbranded sensors failing.  The Bosch combined press/temp ones are good (you would only use the press part), Honeywell MIP or MLH or PX3 are good, Variohm are good, the AEM stainless ones seem reasonable.   

 

3 hours ago, dangero said:

Knock sensor

First check your Atom is at least hardware revision V3.0 as the early ones didnt have knock control hardware.  Assuming yours does then any Bosch flat response doughnut type sensor will work.

 

3 hours ago, dangero said:

Boost solenoid

The Atom only does open loop boost control, but still very worthwhile.  

 

3 hours ago, dangero said:

Speed sensor

Very worthwhile, launch control, gear calculation, boost by gear, boost by speed etc, its also nice to use as an idle control lockout if it has an idle valve.  

 

3 hours ago, dangero said:

Fuel pump switching/voltage reduction

You will need a relay to handle the fuel pump current, but the ecu can control the relay.  If you just want on/off control the a normal mechanical relay is fine, if you want to do PWM/speed control then you will need a solid state relay. 

 

3 hours ago, dangero said:

Can I program knock timing reduction and low oil pressure cutout?

Yes, there is GP limiter example for oil pressure in the help file.  Knock is very effective but you have to have a reasonable level of experience and preferably audio knock detection equipment to set it up and tune it.  

 

3 hours ago, dangero said:

CANbus to OBD2

You only need two wires from the ECU to an OBD2 socket, you are probably best to do your own.  Pretty much anything you buy will need terminals crimped on at least one end.  You could possibly just buy a cheap OBD2 extension lead and cut one end off.  Having said that OBD2 doesnt make for a great display in my experience, especially RPM and shiftlight functionality is way too slow.  

 

[dangero]

22 minutes ago, Adamw said:

The Atom only has 3 analog inputs, you need 2 for TPS and MAP, leaving only one spare.  So you have to choose between the Innovate or the Oil press sensor.  Personally since the innovate controllers are POS, I would use the analog input for oil press and get a CAN bus lambda controller.  

Roger, will use the other analog for bosch OEM oil pressure sensor 

First check your Atom is at least hardware revision V3.0 as the early ones didnt have knock control hardware.  Assuming yours does then any Bosch flat response doughnut type sensor will work.

OK Thanks

The Atom only does open loop boost control, but still very worthwhile.  

MAC solenoid ordered. Thanks!

Very worthwhile, launch control, gear calculation, boost by gear, boost by speed etc, its also nice to use as an idle control lockout if it has an idle valve.  

This sounds like a definite. I assume I need a wheel speed sensor that you measure rotation diameter? Can you please point me in the right directon of what I need to buy? 

You will need a relay to handle the fuel pump current, but the ecu can control the relay.  If you just want on/off control the a normal mechanical relay is fine, if you want to do PWM/speed control then you will need a solid state relay. 

Cool, relay ordered, Thanks!

Yes, there is GP limiter example for oil pressure in the help file.  Knock is very effective but you have to have a reasonable level of experience and preferably audio knock detection equipment to set it up and tune it.  

Excellent! oil surge killed the last motor, very long corner with high G, looking forward to some insurance here 

You only need two wires from the ECU to an OBD2 socket, you are probably best to do your own.  Pretty much anything you buy will need terminals crimped on at least one end.  You could possibly just buy a cheap OBD2 extension lead and cut one end off.  Having said that OBD2 doesnt make for a great display in my experience, especially RPM and shiftlight functionality is way too slow.  

Advice headed, I will try it out and will try it out with caution.

Thank you for the comprehensive answers Adam, all addressed. If you can point me in the right direction for teh speed sensor Id greatly appreciate it.

 

Cheers! 

22 minutes ago, Adamw said:

 

 

[DerekAE86]

Depends what car it is what speed sesnor options you have.

It might even be easier to take the speed reading directly off the transmission rather than a wheel.
A lot of old Toyotas have a cable driven speedo from the gearbox to the cluster - but if you're ditching the OEM cluster you won't need that speedo cable and could replace the transmission output with a digitial version if there's a direct swap available for your gearbox.

Otherwise you could get an adaptor that screws on in place of the cable like this:

https://www.howardinstruments.com.au/product_details.php?productid=1237&mdid=6e767e919eb762c67bc83cf543ab2318

(Make sure you do your research for what thread etc fits your application)

[dangero]

Thanks Derek,

A bit more reading has an answer for me. The gearbox is a Toyota T50 from an AE86 that has a mechanical speedo cable, but the ST185 Celica had the same screw in fitting with an electronic speed sensor. I will measure tonight and see if I have enough clearance.

There's plenty of room in the engine bay, everything has been trial fitted and it all has to come out again to paint all the fabricated bits. Transmission tunnel is a different story! not much room there.

 

 

 

[fast4motion]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:48 PM, dangero said:

Thanks Derek,

A bit more reading has an answer for me. The gearbox is a Toyota T50 from an AE86 that has a mechanical speedo cable, but the ST185 Celica had the same screw in fitting with an electronic speed sensor. I will measure tonight and see if I have enough clearance.

There's plenty of room in the engine bay, everything has been trial fitted and it all has to come out again to paint all the fabricated bits. Transmission tunnel is a different story! not much room there.

 

 

 

Looks good. I'm just curious if you considered the crank trigger conversion which MRP sell? 

[dangero]

I hadn't seen the MRP crank trigger kit. I will consider it. I already modded the distributor and would like to see if I can get it working with reasonable accuracy.

I have ordered all the other suggested bits and will be putting everything together in a few weeks when all the parts arrive. The entire car needs rewiring and has no electrics at all at the moment.

I will be using an Eaton Busmann fuse/relay box and will make a dash panel with all required buttons. Not much is needed just lights, indicators, tail light and fuel pump relay. Still looking into dash and telemetry but both those things can be taken care of with a raspberry pi and PIcam. 

Lots of cleaning and fettling to do  but we are underway! 

[DerekAE86]

On 4/4/2023 at 5:11 PM, fast4motion said:

I'm just curious if you considered the crank trigger conversion which MRP sell? 

I've always wondered what the actual benefits are for upgrading to an aftermarket 24-1/36-1 or 60-2 trigger wheel is?
If the factory Dizzy/CAS works as a positional sensor, what is "better" about more teeth and a Hall sensor?

[dangero]

Not so much that it is a hall sensor, more that its positional accuracy references the crank position perfectly. With the Dizzy, you are referencing the cam rather than the crank so the measurement is not absolute during most of the stroke. In most applications this is not an issue but when trying to precisely time spark and fuel its better to start with the best reference point you can use.

it also reduces mechanical drag by not requiring energy for spinning the CAS/Dizzy meaning more potential power (0.00001kw perhaps!)

[koracing]

<opinion>

I have yet to see definitive proof that in the real world of practical use that using crank position sensors on the crank versus the cam actually causes any issues as when tuning you actually give the engine what it wants and responds to, and whether that value is a degree or 3 off, as long as it's what the engine wants, that seems fine to me.  The only exception to this would be vvti might be a little more sensitive, but most vehicles using a cam mounted crank position sensor aren't likely to be VVT. 

Of course you can go from the other side of the equation and say "what happens when the belt skips a tooth" - with cam mounted sensors you could potentially be throwing timing off by quite a bit, but usually a belt skip won't be in the advance direction I wouldn't think.  Planning around a potential issue like that also seems like the wrong approach.  I would rather address any issues that potentially could lead to a belt skipping versus changing my sensor setup "unnecessarily".

Of course I've always been of the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it, unless it adds a lot of horsepower" mentality.  

</opinion>

[dangero]

my sentiments exactly although I am less educated on the topic.

 

Onto another question, I had planned to use some 440cc denso injectors I have but they have been sitting for years and the cost of cleaning and servicing them is nearly the same as buying replacements. Can someone enlighten me as to what impendence I  should be looking for, brands that are reliable and cost effective. Id prefer to use denso plugs as the loom I will have is from MRP and has these fitted.

more capacity would be good for future tunability. The 440's I have will get me 270 crank HP at 85% duty cycle which is the limit of the turbo, i may want to go E85 or a larger turbo later so would be better going larger if replacing.

Is idle tunability affected going sizes over 700ish? I had a R33 skyline with 740'ccs that was slightly touchy at idle on cold start.   

[Adamw]

A good crank trigger set-up gives 2 main advantages over a distributor or cam-driven trigger.  

1. Spark scatter - a distributor or cam trigger is generally connected to the crankshaft via several mechancal interfaces with varying levels of backlash and flexibility.  On engines with 4cyl or less especially, valve train resonance can be quite extreme, when you pass through these bands of resonance the camshaft starts bouncing backwards and forwards due to flexibility in the drive system and the cam itself (belt/chain etc) and if there is any backlash in the trigger drive (distributor gears, spline drive or driving dog etc) this resonance is further exaggerated in the trigger signal.  When you have significant scatter it means some spark events will be more retarded than desired and some more advanced than desired so you not only lose power from the retarded sparks, but because you have some sparks that are occurring too early you will reach the knock threshold earlier so you have to run less timing all over as well.  Whereas if the trigger is rigidly attached to the crankshaft there is no valve train resonance influence and no backlash influence, all spark events can be much closer to the ideal angle.
2. Update angle - the angle between teeth affects how far ahead the ecu has to predict crankshaft position, if the crank speed changes between those tooth updates then the prediction is wrong.  The more often you get those updates and the smaller the angle between them, the less prediction error you have.  

Depending how bad the trigger design is, both of these can have a big effect.  Spark scatter related especially I have seen some quite unbelievable gains.  The best example I can remember where the only change was the trigger is an RB26 engine I used to work on many years ago, it had an old M8 motec on it.  With the stock 360opto trigger I always knew it had significant spark scatter, but I never considered that an issue and it made around 760HP at the hubs which was more than most in those days.  That was pushing things pretty hard though, I dont think there would have been another 5HP in it if I tried. Anyhow, the spline drive in the end of the cam came loose one day on the dyno which was going to be a big job to fix so we decided to put a crank trigger on it instead.  We made a 60-2 trigger wheel as the Motec was a special "high speed trigger" version (to handle the 360 opto) and 60 teeth was recommended as ideal.  Not really expecting any difference but we noticed as soon as we started it that it just seemed to run smoother, with a timing light on it the spark scatter was now almost indistinguishable.   We played around with it a bit and noticed on the first power run it made more power than it ever had before and the boost had dropped a couple of psi?  I could only link that to the reduction of spark scatter so I tried adding a bit more timing - it seemed happy - so I added a bit more - still seemed happy - then a bit more boost...  From memory it took about an extra 5deg advance over what it would start to knock at before.  It ended up at 880HP at the same boost with the only hardware change being the trigger.   Quite a worthwhile upgrade .

More recently I fitted an atom to a carburetted classic race car as an ignition-only upgrade.  It had OEM computer control ign already but it had a heap of spark scatter and not a great timing curve - I could change the timing by rotating the distributor but it had too much advance down low and not enough up top.  I removed the distributor, added a crank trigger and wasted spark coils. I cant remember the exact numbers but again it was way more than I ever expected, it went from something like 130 to 145HP.  In this case I couldn't say it was only due to the stability improvement though, it got a more optimised advance curve and possibly a better spark or longer spark duration at the same time. 

A good example of the update angle effect is to put a timing light on a Mitsi Evo, these have a crank trigger so no resonance effect but only 2 teeth on the crank.  If you lock the timing and stab the throttle you can see a very large drift in timing during the transient, 5-10deg at a guess.  There is a common 12T trigger wheel upgrade, and if you fit one of these there is still a little visible drift but it is greatly reduced, maybe 2deg.  I find with anything more than about 24T on the crank it is pretty difficult to distinguish any transient drift, some of it is probably timing light delay too.  

[dangero]

Thanks for taking the time to explain a crank trigger vs cam.

I have learnt more in the last 5 min about timing than 10 years of tinkering and reading. Your post is going into my own personal wiki.

Cheers, 

[koracing]

I agree it's very nice to hear about some real world examples of gains to be had.  I personally couldn't believe when I first saw a 360tooth trigger and wondered how it could be that there weren't more issues with them.  On the other side, Miatas come all with 4 tooth crank triggers (lol, how do they even run right?).   Even 60-2 tooth triggers I've seen issues on some ecus (Haletch platinum) when trying to go for higher rpm.  I like the 36-2 as a max personally as I like the math of every tooth is 10 degrees.  That and being somewhat a Toyota fan, often I find if Toyota uses it, it's probably good.

[DerekAE86]

8 minutes ago, koracing said:

I personally couldn't believe when I first saw a 360tooth trigger and wondered how it could be that there weren't more issues with them. 

I guess those old ECUs were really low on processing power so having such a low update freq meant less interpolation required?

[dangero]

ordered some 800cc denso injectors as it was cheaper than servicing the 440's I already have.

Just future proofing as I will most likely need to go up in turbo size. Current turbo is maxed out at 270hp. and will be pushing lots of hot air at more than 1 bar past 6000rpm. I can keep the same exhaust housing and just go up a size on the compressor and cover by replacing the CHRA for a GTX2560 or replace the turbo for GTX28XX frame. 

I wont know if the turbo is suitable for the track it has been built for till I have done a tune and testing. If its too small I will replace it.

The new injectors will support 400hp on E85 if I ever want to go that way. although that will break the T50 gearbox and escort diff...

 

[koracing]

I doubt you'd get to 400whp on e85 with 800cc denso injectors.  At the crankshaft no problem.

[dangero]

Sorry, should have clarified 400 HP at the crank.

Bit of an update.

Manifold, exhaust housing ceramic coated

V band front section of exhaust fabricated

Intercooler piping and BOV completed

Turbo lines made and plumbed in

Cam covers milled and painted

Plenum & TB decluttered and painted

Everything mechanical is now complete and awaiting the ECU and loom to arrive. I don't like the angle of the throttle I/C piping and will buy a few more bends and fabricate a better solution. the piping is lipped and will not blow off but it looks ugly.

Still need to fabricate cold air intake.

Bodywork will be mint green (see bit of bonnet in corner of pic) 

    

 

 

Corner weighted everything and we are at 486KG. Still have to add Loom, ECU, Battery. Will be heavier than initial estimate of 490 KG. At a guess I have about 25KG of stuff to add. Still should be about 500 BHP/Tonne.

[dangero]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:04 PM, Adamw said:

A good crank trigger set-up gives 2 main advantages over a distributor or cam-driven trigger.  

1. Spark scatter - a distributor or cam trigger is generally connected to the crankshaft via several mechancal interfaces with varying levels of backlash and flexibility.  On engines with 4cyl or less especially, valve train resonance can be quite extreme, when you pass through these bands of resonance the camshaft starts bouncing backwards and forwards due to flexibility in the drive system and the cam itself (belt/chain etc) and if there is any backlash in the trigger drive (distributor gears, spline drive or driving dog etc) this resonance is further exaggerated in the trigger signal.  When you have significant scatter it means some spark events will be more retarded than desired and some more advanced than desired so you not only lose power from the retarded sparks, but because you have some sparks that are occurring too early you will reach the knock threshold earlier so you have to run less timing all over as well.  Whereas if the trigger is rigidly attached to the crankshaft there is no valve train resonance influence and no backlash influence, all spark events can be much closer to the ideal angle.
2. Update angle - the angle between teeth affects how far ahead the ecu has to predict crankshaft position, if the crank speed changes between those tooth updates then the prediction is wrong.  The more often you get those updates and the smaller the angle between them, the less prediction error you have.  

Depending how bad the trigger design is, both of these can have a big effect.  Spark scatter related especially I have seen some quite unbelievable gains.  The best example I can remember where the only change was the trigger is an RB26 engine I used to work on many years ago, it had an old M8 motec on it.  With the stock 360opto trigger I always knew it had significant spark scatter, but I never considered that an issue and it made around 760HP at the hubs which was more than most in those days.  That was pushing things pretty hard though, I dont think there would have been another 5HP in it if I tried. Anyhow, the spline drive in the end of the cam came loose one day on the dyno which was going to be a big job to fix so we decided to put a crank trigger on it instead.  We made a 60-2 trigger wheel as the Motec was a special "high speed trigger" version (to handle the 360 opto) and 60 teeth was recommended as ideal.  Not really expecting any difference but we noticed as soon as we started it that it just seemed to run smoother, with a timing light on it the spark scatter was now almost indistinguishable.   We played around with it a bit and noticed on the first power run it made more power than it ever had before and the boost had dropped a couple of psi?  I could only link that to the reduction of spark scatter so I tried adding a bit more timing - it seemed happy - so I added a bit more - still seemed happy - then a bit more boost...  From memory it took about an extra 5deg advance over what it would start to knock at before.  It ended up at 880HP at the same boost with the only hardware change being the trigger.   Quite a worthwhile upgrade .

More recently I fitted an atom to a carburetted classic race car as an ignition-only upgrade.  It had OEM computer control ign already but it had a heap of spark scatter and not a great timing curve - I could change the timing by rotating the distributor but it had too much advance down low and not enough up top.  I removed the distributor, added a crank trigger and wasted spark coils. I cant remember the exact numbers but again it was way more than I ever expected, it went from something like 130 to 145HP.  In this case I couldn't say it was only due to the stability improvement though, it got a more optimised advance curve and possibly a better spark or longer spark duration at the same time. 

A good example of the update angle effect is to put a timing light on a Mitsi Evo, these have a crank trigger so no resonance effect but only 2 teeth on the crank.  If you lock the timing and stab the throttle you can see a very large drift in timing during the transient, 5-10deg at a guess.  There is a common 12T trigger wheel upgrade, and if you fit one of these there is still a little visible drift but it is greatly reduced, maybe 2deg.  I find with anything more than about 24T on the crank it is pretty difficult to distinguish any transient drift, some of it is probably timing light delay too.  

I decided to run a crank trigger based on the excellent explanation above.

I have fitted a 36-1 wheel and sensor that as the following wires:

Shield/gnd on ECU - Sensor signal ground

+5V on ECU - Sensor +Ve

Trig1 on ECU - Sensor signal output

I assume I will need to remove a single tooth at the home position, Is this best to point to TDC on the crank?

Do I need to use Trig2 for anything? 

Have I got the process correct?

Thanks!

[Adamw]

5 hours ago, dangero said:

I assume I will need to remove a single tooth at the home position, Is this best to point to TDC on the crank?

Is it not a 36-1 already?

 

You will need a single tooth on the cam for sequential or direct spark.  

[dangero]

Thanks Adam,

 

its a 36 tooth wheel without a tooth removed from MRP.

https://www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/trigger-wheel-setup/ (24 tooth pictured but 36 tooth the same) 

 

 

 

[Adamw]

Pretty wierd they call it a 36-1 when it doesnt have a "-1".

If you need to remove the tooth yourself, then turn the crank to 90BTDC or 90ATDC by hand (just roughly be eye is fine) and remove the tooth that is under the sensor at that position.

[dangero]

Oops, just reread your post Adam.

I am not using a harmonic balancer with a mark that references the crank position so have done the following:

Set crank to TDC by removing spark plug on CYL#1, set up dial indicator to touch piston just before TDC, wind crank through backwards and forwards watching the indicator and marked the position where the indicator changes direction. This referenced TDC perfectly, then set cams using degree wheel so cams and crank are now both in sync perfectly and I know where TDC is.

Now for the mistake! I removed the tooth that is exactly inline with the hall sensor at TDC!

Can I offset this in the ECU?

[koracing]

If there's multiple mounting holes with the pulley like shown in your link - then just remount the trigger wheel to offset the missing tooth.  It may cause some issues having it right at TDC.

[dangero]

Thanks Kris, I have the option of moving the trigger wheel so will do as suggested.

I have come across another issue I need some help with. 

As this was the first time I have wired a car from scratch I assumed the analogue outputs on the ECU would have enough current and voltage to switch an automotive relay as a high active.

Unfortunately I have wired and loomed everything. every sensor is in an calibrated, injectors and ignition all works under test but the fuel pump and fan are wired to switch on with a 12v signal applied to the relay. I set the outputs to Hi but the ECU output does not have enough current to drive the relay. Reading the manual it appears the recommended way to wire outputs is to pull low to trigger relays.

MY fuse box has a common earth and common power to all relays so unless i rip it all out and start from scratch I need to come up with a solution.

 

When I test the output from AUX on the ECU when switching High, I am getting 11.5V and only a few milliamps. I am thinking it will be easier to build a relay driver for the two circuits I need rather than rewire the whole fuse box.

Will the following work?

NPN Transistor, like a 2N3094

1N4001 diode used as a flyback

Resistor providing limited current to the transistor. (1k should do)

I only need 150ma to trigger the relay so shouldn't need to stack transistors.