G5 7100 open Race Truck

[Vaughan]

20 hours ago, Endurance_Racer said:

Ok so we got the cam sensor online and the Crank trigger is still being fussy. I will upload the trigger scope here so you can take a look at it.

Trigger Scope2 ECOBOOST - 2024-03-6 6;33;26 pm.llg5 41.31 kB · 1 download

It has been brought to my attention that the Trigger state is happy in this scope and that the Trigger 1 not looking right could be because of aliasing/sample rate. Can you take a PC Log of cranking with that wiring/crank sensor setup to see if it gets an rpm signal and to see if the dwell time and inj pw runtimes move around please.

15 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said:

Let me know about the fuel pump information I sent.

will look at this soon

If you have access to an actual oscilloscope that would also show if it is just that the ECU trigger scope isn't sampling fast enough

[Endurance_Racer]

Ok no problem. Here is the log you requested. Trigger two looks great. I am just not sure about what the deal is with trigger one. LMK 

NEW CRANKING LOG- 2024-03-7 3;17;31 pm.llg5

[Vaughan]

36 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said:

Ok no problem. Here is the log you requested. Trigger two looks great. I am just not sure about what the deal is with trigger one. LMK 

NEW CRANKING LOG- 2024-03-7 3;17;31 pm.llg5 718.46 kB · 0 downloads

Is that with the same setup as that previous trigger scope? I'm not seeing any trigger 1 or trigger state changing so it looks like it's different to that specific trigger scope I mentioned above

[Endurance_Racer]

Ok somehow after updating the firmware we now have RPM.... But the signal looks like absolute dog poo! I am not sure how we can fix this. Please take a look at the file. Would love to jump on a call if that is possible?

Second NEW CRANK - 2024-03-7 4;17;18 pm.llg5

[Laminar]

I have a 2.7 EcoBoost and this is how the crankshaft sensor shows up on my wiring diagram:

It is a hall effect sensor. I have my trigger 1 set to Optical/Hall, Pull-up ON, and Falling edge, yours is set to Rising. Does anything change if you switch to Falling?

My Ye/Vt pin 78 goes to the Trigger 1 input, Gy/Vt VREF to the Link 5V Vref, and my Gn/Bn SIGRTN plus the shield go to the trigger ground.

Do you have a picture of your crank tooth wheel, between the crank and the flywheel/flexplate? My NA 3.7 had a 36-1 wheel but my 2.7 EcoBoost came with a 60-2 wheel, so both wheels are out there for these engines. You're getting a very regular trigger 1 error, like maybe it's seeing a missing tooth when it doesn't expect one.

Here's my tooth log:

Adam said the odd appearance of Trig1 is normal - at 200rpm with a 60-2 wheel, that's 200 teeth per second. With only a 50-60Hz capture rate, the log is not perfectly capturing every tooth.

[Endurance_Racer]

4 hours ago, Laminar said:

I have a 2.7 EcoBoost and this is how the crankshaft sensor shows up on my wiring diagram:

It is a hall effect sensor. I have my trigger 1 set to Optical/Hall, Pull-up ON, and Falling edge, yours is set to Rising. Does anything change if you switch to Falling?

My Ye/Vt pin 78 goes to the Trigger 1 input, Gy/Vt VREF to the Link 5V Vref, and my Gn/Bn SIGRTN plus the shield go to the trigger ground.

Do you have a picture of your crank tooth wheel, between the crank and the flywheel/flexplate? My NA 3.7 had a 36-1 wheel but my 2.7 EcoBoost came with a 60-2 wheel, so both wheels are out there for these engines. You're getting a very regular trigger 1 error, like maybe it's seeing a missing tooth when it doesn't expect one.

Here's my tooth log:

Adam said the odd appearance of Trig1 is normal - at 200rpm with a 60-2 wheel, that's 200 teeth per second. With only a 50-60Hz capture rate, the log is not perfectly capturing every tooth.

Very interesting. Are you running this on your link? The trigger pattern is a 36-1 and it seems like it sees RPM. So how are you combating the issue of the RPM signal turning off and on. Does it stay running? He said it was Aliasing. Please let me know.

[Laminar]

In your tune, your Trigger 1 is set to 60-2. Make that 36-1 and see how it does. The trigger scope looks ugly, but that's just an artifact of the data collection process. The ECU is able to see each pulse correctly.

I'm still in the beginning stages and my initial sync isn't perfect. I also deleted the DI system and am running port injection only. I'm trying to figure out VVT now. You can check my thread for progress so far.

 

[Endurance_Racer]

Interesting.... Yeah it is all set back to the 36-1 tooth count. I am going to be running DI for this engine. I have the Fuel pump control and what not so it should not be that big of a deal. I was thinking of just getting it running on Port injection for the time. As both are hooked up but do not want to ruin the pump if it is not going to be working. I have had the hardest time getting some assistance with this. 

Cam control should not be too difficult. Once I get it running. I will sort the PID control and what not. What is your current offset set too? I still need to figure that out to get this thing going. Luckily I have the factory data from a factory tune file for this. So lets see what happens.

[Laminar]

You can check my latest tune file in my thread if you’re interested in the details. I need to get the coolant system hooked up so I can run it for more than a minute at a time and get everything nailed down. It definitely has helped having a factory tune and HPTuners to pull data from. I used a lot of excel sheets to get from the factory distance tables to a reasonable starting point for spark and VVT position. 

[Endurance_Racer]

Yeah but is it actually running well with the trigger the way it is? Do you have to add any offset to it or delay? I have some really good information from the factory to get this thing fired off. Should be fun. I am having quite the time with the HPFP table and the rest of the data. But should be good.

[Vaughan]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:27 AM, Endurance_Racer said:

Apologies for the delay but here is what I have come up with for your pump calibration.

Where have you gotten to with getting triggers working? That "Second NEW CRANK" scope from Friday looks like crank sensor is working but wrong crank pattern with how it goes to 0 in a regular pattern as if the number of teeth specified is wrong.

EcoBoost 3.5 DI Pump Calibration.lte

[Endurance_Racer]

This looks great. Here is the new file that I have added what I think is correct. Let me know your thoughts. I would love to get this thing fired up today if at all possible. I will get the trigger offset done correctly so it does not see any errors. I think that is what the problem is currently.

I have also added my commanded pressure table. The only other thing that this thing needs to fire is proper VVT setup. I have done as much as possible to get these tables correct. A second pair of eyes would not hurt. I do not want to have any mishaps as this engine is brand new and built. We should see north of 900whp on DI+port when all said and done for this truck.

 

Again thank you for all the help!

Brady_7100TT-3.5L_V1.0.pcl5

[Laminar]

Your tune still has a 60-2 wheel set for trigger 1. If you really have the 36-1, then correct that. If your crank wheel doesn't have a TDC mark on it, use a piston stop and make one. Then Triggers > Calibrate > Set Base Timing to find your trigger offset. Take a trigger scope to get an estimate of what your sync tooth and window should be.

At 900+ hp I'm assuming you're over 30psi of boost, so you'll probably want to enlarge your spark and fuel tables to accommodate maybe 250kPa MGP.

You'll need to finish setting up VVT. The 2.7 cam sensors are hall effect, so I turned on the pullup resistors. I'm using 250Hz output frequency, you'll want to assign your AUX outputs for the control solenoids. What are your current VVT Setup settings from as far as tooth tolerance and positions? It looks like you're using the actual cam degrees for your relaxed positions, but you're using relative setpoints for your target tables.

Once you're running, you'll do a VVT Setup > Cam Angle Test > Calibrate and it will fill in your tooth counts and offsets.

[Vaughan]

Looking through your tune there are a couple of things I would change.

• Injector Duty Cycle Fault Value is set to 90, I would set this to something more like 50% as this is checked on the primary injectors which are the DI injectors which can't inject for as much of the engine cycle as port injectors can.
• Your Primary injector SPWA table is all set to 0.15ms which seems odd.
• You don't have any form of wideband input setup, do you have a wideband AFR/lambda sensor connected to this engine?
• Typically you wouldn't have an IAT fuel trim table and little to no warmup enrichment when using a charge temp table.
• You don't have any MAP protections setup.
• I do actually want to see an oscilloscope trace of Trig 1 and Trig 2 signals so that I can check where teh Trig 2 cam pulse window needs to be as it is currently only set to 10deg long which won't be enough for a VVT cam and is set to be right after the gap.
• Your VVT target table values are all setup as relative to rest position values but you have non zero values for the Inlet Fully Rtd and Exhaust Fully adv positions. I would recommend setting your Inlet Fully Rtd and Exhaust Fully adv positions to 0deg.You do also seem to have quite large tooth tolerances in directions that the cams don't normally swing, where did these values come from?

[Endurance_Racer]

Ok lets see if this helps. The very last file did not save for some reason. So take a peek at this one. I will scope it here shortly.

Brady_7100TT-3.5L_V1.0.pcl5

Here is another scope. RPM seems to stay much more stable. I also have a log attached.

ALLTRIGGERS3.5 - 2024-03-10 4;18;32 pm.llg5 PC Datalogecoboost3.5 - 2024-03-10 4;21;11 pm.llg5

[Endurance_Racer]

Also I am needing some sort of CAN output on the ECU channel for an CAN aux to control the fuel pump on the AIM PDM unit. Was wondering if this is something simple to work out. I imagine I would need to just add a channel for this? Can I Receive only from the PDM as the CAN key pad is used? 

I have a button that I want to use for boost control.

[Adamw]

Attach your most recent tune and a copy of the pdm config, I can help with the CAN setup.  

[Vaughan]

26 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said:

Ok lets see if this helps. The very last file did not save for some reason. So take a peek at this one. I will scope it here shortly.

Brady_7100TT-3.5L_V1.0.pcl5 530.86 kB · 0 downloads

Your VVT Inlet, Exhaust target table seems all screwed up in that one.

Secondary Injector Timing (Port injectors) is all set to 0deg btdc, typically when using end of injection mode this would be 360-400deg btdc (you are using start of inj mode due to staged but work backwards from there).

All these points from the previous tune still stand:

• Injector Duty Cycle Fault Value is set to 90, I would set this to something more like 50% as this is checked on the primary injectors which are the DI injectors which can't inject for as much of the engine cycle as port injectors can.
• Your Primary injector SPWA table is all set to 0.15ms which seems odd.
• You don't have any form of wideband input setup, do you have a wideband AFR/lambda sensor connected to this engine?
• Typically you wouldn't have an IAT fuel trim table and little to no warmup enrichment when using a charge temp table.
• I do actually want to see an oscilloscope trace of Trig 1 and Trig 2 signals so that I can check where teh Trig 2 cam pulse window needs to be as it is currently only set to 10deg long which won't be enough for a VVT cam and is set to be right after the gap.
• Your VVT target table values are all setup as relative to rest position values but you have non zero values for the Inlet Fully Rtd and Exhaust Fully adv positions. I would recommend setting your Inlet Fully Rtd and Exhaust Fully adv positions to 0deg.You do also seem to have quite large tooth tolerances in directions that the cams don't normally swing, where did these values come from?

Let me know if you want me to clarify any of them further.

31 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said:

Here is another scope. RPM seems to stay much more stable. I also have a log attached.

ALLTRIGGERS3.5 - 2024-03-10 4;18;32 pm.llg5 23.51 kB · 0 downloads PC Datalogecoboost3.5 - 2024-03-10 4;21;11 pm.llg5 726.67 kB · 0 downloads

This synced and started sending signals to the coil packs, still need to see an actual oscilloscope trace of Trig 1&2 to figure out your cam window settings, if possible one trace with Trig 2 cam fully advanced and one with it fully retarded on the vvt but one with it just in it's rest position will be fine.

Don't forget you haven't set any of the VVT cam outputs but that isn't an issue until after you have it running.

14 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said:

Also I am needing some sort of CAN output on the ECU channel for an CAN aux to control the fuel pump on the AIM PDM unit. Was wondering if this is something simple to work out. I imagine I would need to just add a channel for this? Can I Receive only from the PDM as the CAN key pad is used? 

I have a button that I want to use for boost control.

I haven't dealt with an AIM PDM before but @Adamw will have, from the ECU side it will simply be a case of setting the fuel pump function up with a CAN Aux or virtual Aux and sending that out with a custom CAN stream that matches what the AIM PDM expects. Are you wanting variable speed control or just on/off functionality?

[Endurance_Racer]

Ok this should be it.

I do not have this data from the factory on the SPWA. So I will leave this blank. Wideband just needs to get plugged in. I turned the IAT off.

I am not sure how you want me to get the cam advanced as this is also a Dry sump engine and I most likely will not be able to swing it to full advance. Currently it is in the relaxed position. I ended up getting these values from measuring them on the engine as far as the lobe center it asked for in the literature. The factory has these data points which I was using to get the rest of the information.

I will set the outputs for the VVT once we get everything else sorted. You have no idea how much this is helping. Very big project here. 

18 minutes ago, Adamw said:

Attach your most recent tune and a copy of the pdm config, I can help with the CAN setup.  

Adam thank you so much. Here is the tune and both PDM units. We are running a PDM08 and PDM32 as this truck consumes so much energy.

 

 

Brady_7100TT-3.5L_V1.0.pcl5 Doteki 32 703 Brady.zconfig

3 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said:

Ok this should be it.

I do not have this data from the factory on the SPWA. So I will leave this blank. Wideband just needs to get plugged in. I turned the IAT off.

I am not sure how you want me to get the cam advanced as this is also a Dry sump engine and I most likely will not be able to swing it to full advance. Currently it is in the relaxed position. I ended up getting these values from measuring them on the engine as far as the lobe center it asked for in the literature. The factory has these data points which I was using to get the rest of the information.

I will set the outputs for the VVT once we get everything else sorted. You have no idea how much this is helping. Very big project here. 

Adam thank you so much. Here is the tune and both PDM units. We are running a PDM08 and PDM32 as this truck consumes so much energy.

 

 

Brady_7100TT-3.5L_V1.0.pcl5 Doteki 32 703 Brady.zconfig

It will not allow me to upload the other file as it says it is too large to open.

[Vaughan]

Actually managed to figure out a cam window based on watching the trigger state to find the gap.

Trigger 1 -> Sync Tooth of around 7 and Trigger 2 -> Window Length of 100degrees should work based on it being set to the falling edge.

Should give lots of room for the cam swing, this means the oscilloscope trace shouldn't be needed any less you have trigger issues when swinging the cam or miss-syncing when starting.

[Endurance_Racer]

Ok this is great... Offset will be 7 then. 

My next major concern is the HPFP settings. I was unsure of the minimum angle and the spill valve on duration. I am assuming this is the maximum time the pump can be energized for? The factory ecu is what gave me these values. Once I get some of these sorted I will fire the truck up and take a log to see if it even wants to run. 

I will plug in the Liferacing DI injector boxes. I used the resistor for the HPFP on the circuit to bring the amperage down to around 4.2amps. So we should be able to control this no problem. 

[Vaughan]

Minimum pump angle is just the angle for the lowest calculated pump angle before it will just not try to pump fuel, your 4deg will be fine and this is a value you can play with later when it is running.

Spill valve on duration can be found experimentally by seeing how short it can be before it fails to pump fuel, note we have seen some variation in how large it needs to be over the engine speed range on some engines.

Don't forget if you change some of your staging settings you can get it started on the port injectors and then start to bring in the DI.

Also just looking at your DI injector flow rate again you have it set as 1663cc/min at 379kPa (~26psi) This does seem quite high for a DI injector, is this right?

[Endurance_Racer]

I believe this is incorrect. I only have inj. slope vs pressure from the factory. I used the largest value possible. I would assume this is more accurate at the 750psi range for the size of injector. That would make these injectors around 850cc injectors.

This should be interesting to get fired and running. So if i put a value of 100 percent the engine will primarily run on the PORT injection? The literature says it will only run 75% at max? Maybe I missed something.

[Vaughan]

You will need to set the Staged Injection -> Sec PW Lockout to 0.00ms, set the Staged Injection -> RPM Lockout to 0RPM and set the Staged Injection -> Secondary Injection Staging Table values to 100%. This will make it start and run on just port injectors.

4 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said:

The literature says it will only run 75% at max? Maybe I missed something.

If you can point to the bit of literature I can clarify or correct it.

[Endurance_Racer]

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

You will need to set the Staged Injection -> Sec PW Lockout to 0.00ms, set the Staged Injection -> RPM Lockout to 0RPM and set the Staged Injection -> Secondary Injection Staging Table values to 100%. This will make it start and run on just port injectors.

If you can point to the bit of literature I can clarify or correct it.

Beautiful! I will try this first and see what it does. But before I do that. I need the can data back to get this fuel pump running or just let it zing full time until I can get some can data communicating back and forth from the PDM to the G5. This thing should move! 

Did you get a chance to take a look at the cam settings I posted earlier? To see if this makes sense?