Endurance_Racer Posted March 11 Author Report Share Posted March 11 You think this could be because the trigger is still not quite reading right? In the last log you can see the ROC go from 0 to 187 about when it pops. What would this suggest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 11 Report Share Posted March 11 5 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said: You think this could be because the ignition coil needs to be set to rising edge for the Ford coils? I wouldn't recommend toughing the ignition Main -> Spark Edge setting unless you know that the ford coils don't use the standard falling edge that 99% of ignition coils use. That is an excellent way to melt coil packs and your previous investigations seem to indicate that it is sparking correctly and the coil packs haven't melted so falling edge is most likely correct. For your setting your base timing you NEED to be clamping your timing light over an ignition lead between the coil pack and spark plug, not over the power lead to the coil or anything else. For engines with Coil on plug you need to pull the cylinder 1 coil out and push an ignition lead into the end of the coil pack boot with the other end to the spark plug, use the ignition test to confirm the connection is good and that the timing light signal is working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 19 minutes ago, Vaughan said: I wouldn't recommend toughing the ignition Main -> Spark Edge setting unless you know that the ford coils don't use the standard falling edge that 99% of ignition coils use. That is an excellent way to melt coil packs and your previous investigations seem to indicate that it is sparking correctly and the coil packs haven't melted so falling edge is most likely correct. For your setting your base timing you NEED to be clamping your timing light over an ignition lead between the coil pack and spark plug, not over the power lead to the coil or anything else. For engines with Coil on plug you need to pull the cylinder 1 coil out and push an ignition lead into the end of the coil pack boot with the other end to the spark plug, use the ignition test to confirm the connection is good and that the timing light signal is working. I will do this right now and get back to you. I feel like this is something silly. I will keep you posted of the outcome. Thank you so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 It will not even flash now. I have a very smart timing light that I have not ever needed to use like you are asking. On other tuned engines this has been just fine. It is very odd right now what it is doing. It was trying to start but then randomly and not violently at all pushes air back into the intake manifold. We are not far off. I am wondering what else it could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 1 minute ago, Endurance_Racer said: It will not even flash now. I have a very smart timing light that I have not ever needed to use like you are asking. On other tuned engines this has been just fine. It is very odd right now what it is doing. It was trying to start but then randomly and not violently at all pushes air back into the intake manifold. We are not far off. I am wondering what else it could be. Find a really basic one to use, if you do it on the power to the coil it could be picking up when other coils fire Also do the ignition test and look for spark at the spark plug to prove that you got the ignition lead in properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 Done and done.... It is working properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 So when I test the ignition with the coil plugged in and the light on through the ECU. It shows the signal fine. When I go to crank the engine. It does not show at ALL. The interesting thing is when I shut the fuel off. It sounds like it wants to start and the pops start coming through the exhaust. It is very odd. 27 minutes ago, Vaughan said: Find a really basic one to use, if you do it on the power to the coil it could be picking up when other coils fire Also do the ignition test and look for spark at the spark plug to prove that you got the ignition lead in properly Can you take a look at the trigger scope I did earlier to verify? I will do one right now. But I really do not know why it is having such a difficult time. It is very odd to me why this is. Is the Coyote engine 60-2? Maybe we try using that trigger setup you guys have for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laminar Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 So you have a high tension wire between the coil and spark plug, your timing light is on that high tension wire, and when you crank the engine the timing light doesn’t flash at all? Silly question, but your coils and injectors have +12V while cranking right? Are your plugs coming out wet after cranking? Do you have a sensor on your fuel pressure wired into the link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 Yes we have 12v while cranking. They do look like they are a little over fueled. I guess I can turn down the port injection. Would too much fuel cause this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 35 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said: Can you take a look at the trigger scope I did earlier to verify? I will do one right now. But I really do not know why it is having such a difficult time. It is very odd to me why this is. Is the Coyote engine 60-2? Maybe we try using that trigger setup you guys have for it? I'm not seeing a new trigger scope in that onedrive folder. PCLog while cranking will show if it is trying, good chance it is not seeing a spark when cranking because of a loose connection in that high tension setup that is shaken by the motor or it could be something like battery dropping while cranking, regardless a PCLog will show what it is trying to do. Don't go changing trigger pattern. Endurance_Racer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 6 minutes ago, Vaughan said: I'm not seeing a new trigger scope in that onedrive folder. PCLog while cranking will show if it is trying, good chance it is not seeing a spark when cranking because of a loose connection in that high tension setup that is shaken by the motor or it could be something like battery dropping while cranking, regardless a PCLog will show what it is trying to do. Don't go changing trigger pattern. just uploaded the file and the cranking log. Something is simple. 12v at the coil pack connector, proper wiring, everything looks good. I am watching through the PDM system. Please let me know what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Looking at your new PCLog the measured dwell time is changing so it is sending the signal to trigger the coil. Battery voltage looks good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 6 minutes ago, Vaughan said: Looking at your new PCLog the measured dwell time is changing so it is sending the signal to trigger the coil. Battery voltage looks good I just sent a new trigger scope to the drive. I am honestly stumped. It must be something simple. The wiring is good. Everything else is looking good. When I command the ignition one on the coil I get the light to flash. Now it wont flash. Please check trigger scope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Trigger scope is happy, PCLog is happy. Maybe try pulling the spark plug out and grounding the thread of it while cranking so that it has less load on the coil and so that you can visually check for spark while cranking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 4 minutes ago, Vaughan said: Trigger scope is happy, PCLog is happy. Maybe try pulling the spark plug out and grounding the thread of it while cranking so that it has less load on the coil and so that you can visually check for spark while cranking It wants to fire. I am not sure why it is doing this. Just seems to pop either out the exhaust or the intake. Very odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 One thing I suggest is to set the software up where when you go back to Direct and Port setup on fuel. You do not lose all your settings for this. Every time I have to go back and upload the settings. I have also noticed that when switching back after testing crank angle. The deadtime tables are all over the place and not correct. I believe this is a bug in the software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 15 hours ago, Endurance_Racer said: One thing I suggest is to set the software up where when you go back to Direct and Port setup on fuel. You do not lose all your settings for this. Every time I have to go back and upload the settings. I have also noticed that when switching back after testing crank angle. The deadtime tables are all over the place and not correct. I believe this is a bug in the software. Because you are using 3d deadtime tables instead of 2d deadtime tables they are using some of the general purpose tables that can be allocated to different things instead of using the fixed tables only used for specific things. This means that when you turn the fuel mode off it de-allocates these tables and then when you turn it back on it reallocates them, in your case in a different order to how they were initially allocated when you went through turning things on and off, if you don't use the option to reset the tables you will see the values from what the table was previously being used for show up in the new location the table is being used. Given that you are using 3d deadtime tables it might be easier next time to just use the rpm limit with a 100% fuel cut (but no ign hard cut) to cut the fuel while you are cranking. The function each GP table is allocated to can be seen in the table allocation window down the bottom of the ECU settings menu. Where have you gotten to with confirming the ignition timing? Endurance_Racer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 Thank you for the response. We have not gotten really anywhere. We think we had a bad AIM PDM08 module. So this will help. Seems the coils are not firing or there is too much fuel. As we pulled plugs and the plugs were fowled out. So we cleared the fuel and left cylinders exposed to some air for awhile. We are putting new plugs in right now. What I find really interesting is how Life racing is using the trigger. They have a generic input that is set to thermistor with a 3kOhm pull up and the data shows 2.5v high and 2v low. Still 5v ref and trig gnd in the ECU for Life. There must be something different. As supposedly they are the only ones right now running the 3.5 ecoboost on a Standalone Engine management. Maybe I can send you the CAL file for you to look at and we can sort some stuff out. They have some very interesting data in the CAL that is interesting for Crank position settings. Let me know as I am really beside myself and feel this should not be taking this long. 51 minutes ago, Vaughan said: Because you are using 3d deadtime tables instead of 2d deadtime tables they are using some of the general purpose tables that can be allocated to different things instead of using the fixed tables only used for specific things. This means that when you turn the fuel mode off it de-allocates these tables and then when you turn it back on it reallocates them, in your case in a different order to how they were initially allocated when you went through turning things on and off, if you don't use the option to reset the tables you will see the values from what the table was previously being used for show up in the new location the table is being used. Given that you are using 3d deadtime tables it might be easier next time to just use the rpm limit with a 100% fuel cut (but no ign hard cut) to cut the fuel while you are cranking. The function each GP table is allocated to can be seen in the table allocation window down the bottom of the ECU settings menu. Where have you gotten to with confirming the ignition timing? As far as the 3d dead times. I always use them. I will change this next go around and make sure it gets sorted. Cheers.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Can you get hold of an oscilloscope and scope Trigger 1, Trigger 2 and Ignition 1 over several attempted starts to check to see if always firing ignition 1 in the same half of the cycle please. If it is always firing ignition 1 in the same half of the cycle then the next step would be to set the engine at tdc cyl1 on the compression stroke and eyeball where the cam teeth are relative to the sensor and where the crank gap is relative to the sensor so that we can ball park check your trigger offset. If you are seeing the ign 1 signal from the ECU on the LED light but not seeing the timing light flash that suggests either weak spark or it's being snuffed out, if I have issues like that I usually remove all spark plugs to decrease voltage drop on cranking and I have one spark plug grounded to the head but out in the open and connected to the high tension lead so that I can visually check for spark and so that it is easier for it to arc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Vaughan said: Can you get hold of an oscilloscope and scope Trigger 1, Trigger 2 and Ignition 1 over several attempted starts to check to see if always firing ignition 1 in the same half of the cycle please. If it is always firing ignition 1 in the same half of the cycle then the next step would be to set the engine at tdc cyl1 on the compression stroke and eyeball where the cam teeth are relative to the sensor and where the crank gap is relative to the sensor so that we can ball park check your trigger offset. If you are seeing the ign 1 signal from the ECU on the LED light but not seeing the timing light flash that suggests either weak spark or it's being snuffed out, if I have issues like that I usually remove all spark plugs to decrease voltage drop on cranking and I have one spark plug grounded to the head but out in the open and connected to the high tension lead so that I can visually check for spark and so that it is easier for it to arc. Ok so tested spark to coil grounding and it showed spark. Was not that strong but was there. Have new plugs in the engine now. I will try to scope the engine. But I have an engine on the ground that is open. Here are some pictures Let me see if I can get crank angle on the inlet trigger 2 bank one for the ref. sync. I have also uploaded the CAL file to the google drive. Please take a look and let me know what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamw Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 So many posts here so I might be asking the same questions that has already been answered. Have you tried changing the trigger offset by 360? Can you do 2 new trigger scopes, one with the vvt solenoids unplugged and another with the solenoids plugged in but with the auxes active state set to high in the vvt settings. Endurance_Racer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 26 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said: I have also uploaded the CAL file to the google drive. Please take a look and let me know what you think. Life uses 291deg atdc from the gap which would be -291 btdc so that suggests you are somewhere in the region of 30deg off in your trigger calibration in the Link, note I'm not sure which end of the gap they use so if they use the other end of the gap that is 18deg away but I assume they are basing it off the tooth after the gap like we do. Unsure how they determine which half of the cycle though so could be ~-291 or ~69 26 minutes ago, Endurance_Racer said: Here are some pictures Let me see if I can get crank angle on the inlet trigger 2 bank one for the ref. sync. not seeing any pictures 10 minutes ago, Vaughan said: Life uses 291deg atdc from the gap which would be -291 btdc so that suggests you are somewhere in the region of 30deg off in your trigger calibration in the Link, note I'm not sure which end of the gap they use so if they use the other end of the gap that is 18deg away but I assume they are basing it off the tooth after the gap like we do. Unsure how they determine which half of the cycle though so could be ~-291 or ~69 Actually rethinking this now as that 291 atdc seems to be when cam passes but their crank tooth gaps shows the gap to be at tooth 2ish which could imply an offset of maybe 12? Either way I do think your current Link Trigger calibration is incorrect or at least needs better confirming. Endurance_Racer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endurance_Racer Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 9 minutes ago, Adamw said: So many posts here so I might be asking the same questions that has already been answered. Have you tried changing the trigger offset by 360? Can you do 2 new trigger scopes, one with the vvt solenoids unplugged and another with the solenoids plugged in but with the auxes active state set to high in the vvt settings. Yes we have and it gets worse.... Like 22psi worth of pressure in the intake manifold. I will do that now. 3 minutes ago, Vaughan said: Life uses 291deg atdc from the gap which would be -291 btdc so that suggests you are somewhere in the region of 30deg off in your trigger calibration in the Link, note I'm not sure which end of the gap they use so if they use the other end of the gap that is 18deg away but I assume they are basing it off the tooth after the gap like we do. Unsure how they determine which half of the cycle though so could be ~-291 or ~69 not seeing any pictures Ok this makes more sense. Let me get these going for you. I have uploaded pictures in the google drive. The pictures are of the engine at TDC showing the intake cam on bank one tooth position. The tooth is just past the sensor on this picture of the engine at TDC. Let me know your thoughts. Sending log files for Adam now. Here is the logs with both as requested by @Adamw Trigger Scope VVT-SolenoidsON- 2024-03-12 4;48;28 pm.llg5 Trigger Scope VVT-unpugged - 2024-03-12 4;43;23 pm.llg5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 13 Report Share Posted March 13 based on your pictures I put the yellow cursor about where I think the sensor is at tdc and it looks like an offset of approximately -90 or +270 Also your trigger scopes above look identical so the cams didn't move, this may be due to lack of oil pressure as it was just cranking not running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 13 Report Share Posted March 13 As another thought the other thread with the 2.7 ecoboost (https://forums.linkecu.com/topic/21146-ecoboost-27-compatibility-vvt-dome-control-etc/page/2/) has what looks like the same pattern and uses a trigger offset of 283 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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