Thunder PCLink settings

[Mike928]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gj4DrUf2ooiL_Z7Y0AjsBtGebB74vJus/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1He7TktZmRE3Mqy1SsliU9GcBBfx1zBRP/view?usp=sharing

1st pic is at the end of calibration [both] but still in 'On setup' mode.

2nd pic is 'on' mode straight after setup.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gPcQfcrPSX_hWnVRL77apEWNglClSVpx/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g5UxKuCNxwIrI4V_yrMLSv3bSAWRAjvu/view?usp=sharing

[Adamw]

Go back into your sharing settings and set them to "anyone with link".

[Mike928]

16 hours ago, Adamw said:

Go back into your sharing settings and set them to "anyone with link".

ok, done it.

[Adamw]

There is no log in any of those most recent links.  The older links on the previous page are still restricted. E-throttle 2 just looks reversed to me, does it not close when you change the aux 17 polarity?

The triggerscope log on the previous page shows no trigger signal, are you sure you clicked capture while the engine was cranking and not before?

[Mike928]

16 minutes ago, Adamw said:

There is no log in any of those most recent links.  The older links on the previous page are still restricted. E-throttle 2 just looks reversed to me, does it not close when you change the aux 17 polarity?

The triggerscope log on the previous page shows no trigger signal, are you sure you clicked capture while the engine was cranking and not before?

I'll do them all again but it won't be for a while.

Yes #2 looks reversed but as I posted previously, feeding (+) into Aux9 and 17 at the ECU plug and (-) into Aux 10 and 18 similarly then inputing 12V via a pot both throttles open and close in perfect unison.

The video shows when #2 opens during 'on setup' mode, closes when changed back to 'on'.

[Adamw]

3 hours ago, Mike928 said:

but as I posted previously, feeding (+) into Aux9 and 17 at the ECU plug and (-) into Aux 10 and 18 similarly

How do you know Aux 9 and Aux 17 are outputting the same polarity though?  There is no polarity setting on Aux 9 to compare which is why I said to try aux 17 polarity both ways, I dont know which option duplicates Aux 9 behaviour without wiring up a test setup for myself. 

 

3 hours ago, Mike928 said:

The video shows when #2 opens during 'on setup' mode, closes when changed back to 'on'.

This is because the ecu sees the throttle is jammed open when you are commanding it closed so it activates safety mode and shuts off the throttle relay.  The return spring is shutting the throttle, not the ecu.  In setup mode the safety functionality is disabled so the throttle stays powered up and will stay open if the polarity is reversed.  

[Mike928]

15 minutes ago, Adamw said:

How do you know Aux 9 and Aux 17 are outputting the same polarity though?  There is no polarity setting on Aux 9 to compare which is why I said to try aux 17 polarity both ways, I dont know which option duplicates Aux 9 behaviour without wiring up a test setup for myself. 

 

This is because the ecu sees the throttle is jammed open when you are commanding it closed so it activates safety mode and shuts off the throttle relay.  The return spring is shutting the throttle, not the ecu.  In setup mode the safety functionality is disabled so the throttle stays powered up and will stay open if the polarity is reversed.  

Maybe I can put my multimeter on the ECU outputs during its operation?

From the pedal, I get no TP operation at all, I have done on #1 only but not now. I've even tried turning #2 off, everything for #2 off to see if I could get just one to work properly but that failed.

[Mike928]

On 12/18/2023 at 2:54 PM, Mike928 said:

Maybe I can put my multimeter on the ECU outputs during its operation?

From the pedal, I get no TP operation at all, I have done on #1 only but not now. I've even tried turning #2 off, everything for #2 off to see if I could get just one to work properly but that failed.

My Porsche has this flywheel sensor ring, 100 tooth with 2 slightly larger teeth at about 70 degrees advanced of TDC.

What setting do I put in PC-Link for this crank sensor config?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y4PQ52fRna0dMB1fVJQAvHVUmpAU91n9/view?usp=sharing

[Mike928]

21 hours ago, Mike928 said:

My Porsche has this flywheel sensor ring, 100 tooth with 2 slightly larger teeth at about 70 degrees advanced of TDC.

What setting do I put in PC-Link for this crank sensor config?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y4PQ52fRna0dMB1fVJQAvHVUmpAU91n9/view?usp=sharing

If I was to machine a toothed ring for my Porsche flywheel, what would be the ideal/most accurate tooth setup?

[Adamw]

Yeah, unfortunately that 100-0.5-0.5 flywheel pattern is pretty odd and not supported in the G4+.  

Most of the other 928's I have helped users with had a 60-2 trigger and I thought they were stock?  Are there some variations or these?  If some do have a stock 60-2 trigger, does that fit on yours?  

[Mike928]

15 hours ago, Adamw said:

Yeah, unfortunately that 100-0.5-0.5 flywheel pattern is pretty odd and not supported in the G4+.  

Most of the other 928's I have helped users with had a 60-2 trigger and I thought they were stock?  Are there some variations or these?  If some do have a stock 60-2 trigger, does that fit on yours?  

Adam, my 928 is an '86 model, an 'S', the first year Porsche introduced the 5.0l 32 valve 4 cam engine.

The next year, '87 they released the 928 S4 and made a few changes both to the body style and to the mechanics. A lot of S4 stuff fits and some don't.

I had no idea that they also changed the flywheel sensor until a friend in the tuning industry was here and questioned the tooth configuration. I remembered that I had a spare flywheel somewhere in the depths of my shed and we found it [pictured] this made us removed the flywheel cover on the motor and confirmed it is 100 tooth in the car. Until now, all my research came up with 60-2 which Porsche used from 87-95 on the S4, GT and the GTS but I have the odd one.

I have a friend with a spare S4 engine, I'm hoping that has a flywheel on it. Getting the flywheel out in the car does not look like fun at all!

The tooth wheel is just shrunk on and looks pretty basic to machine up, so I wonder what would be an 'ideal' tooth arrangement?

[928sg]

Mike,

     The S4 60-2 flywheel will bolt up, however you will need to modify an S4 starter bracket, or grind on yours quite a bit for the larger timing ring to clear it.   You will also need a spacer for the crank sensor as the later blocks use the same crank sensor but the mount is taller to account for the larger timing ring.   Since the 85-86 blocks are best to use for stroker engines, pretty much everyone has to go this rout with the modified starter bracket and the spacer.    You could also use the 78-79 lower bell housing as it has an integrated starter fitting and doesn't need a starter bracket, but you will need to clearance it as well.   Hope this helps.

[Adamw]

If you were to make a custom trigger wheel, 24-1 would be my suggestion.  If you use the stock sensor, make the teeth approximately the same size as the original teeth - so it will have small teeth with long gaps between them.  

[Mike928]

4 hours ago, 928sg said:

Mike,

     The S4 60-2 flywheel will bolt up, however you will need to modify an S4 starter bracket, or grind on yours quite a bit for the larger timing ring to clear it.   You will also need a spacer for the crank sensor as the later blocks use the same crank sensor but the mount is taller to account for the larger timing ring.   Since the 85-86 blocks are best to use for stroker engines, pretty much everyone has to go this rout with the modified starter bracket and the spacer.    You could also use the 78-79 lower bell housing as it has an integrated starter fitting and doesn't need a starter bracket, but you will need to clearance it as well.   Hope this helps.

Thanks Stirling, I have owned 6 928 cars but only one was a late model, a 1994 GTS and I didn't have to touch the motor in that. I didn't realise they were so different.

I know the 86 5.0L is popular for the 6.5L mod because it has thicker cylinder walls, better for the 100mm to 104mm pistons.

Firstly I'll look at making a tooth ring to fit my flywheel in the configuration Adam is suggesting. it might be easer in the long run. 

2 hours ago, Adamw said:

If you were to make a custom trigger wheel, 24-1 would be my suggestion.  If you use the stock sensor, make the teeth approximately the same size as the original teeth - so it will have small teeth with long gaps between them.  

I'm going to look at this Adam, 24-1. The existing ring looks like a different metal, or it's been plated. Do you have any suggestions there?

What is the ideal relationship between the missing tooth and TDC? the current 100 tooth unit seems to be about 70 degrees before.

Plus, my flywheel has been balanced with the rest of the moving parts before assembly.

[928sg]

the easiest way to go is to just bolt up a 60-2 flywheel modify the starter bracket, and add a spacer to the flywheel sensor and you will be done, as well as set the timing at 318 to start and then dial in the timing with a timing light if needed.

[Mike928]

2 minutes ago, 928sg said:

the easiest way to go is to just bolt up a 60-2 flywheel modify the starter bracket, and add a spacer to the flywheel sensor and you will be done, as well as set the timing at 318 to start and then dial in the timing with a timing light if needed.

your probably right Stirling. Nothing will happen for a couple of wees when my mechanic mate gets back from holidays.

[Mike928]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:30 AM, Adamw said:

If you were to make a custom trigger wheel, 24-1 would be my suggestion.  If you use the stock sensor, make the teeth approximately the same size as the original teeth - so it will have small teeth with long gaps between them.  

Adam old chap, I've sketched up a CPS wheel to fit to my existing flywheel, in place of the 100 tooth one. However, getting the flywheel off the engine, in the car would be an absolute nightmare.

I'm now thinking it might be smarter to fit an aftermarket one to the front crank pulley.

Adapting something like the TAARKS 36-2 kit [uploaded] would give me a Hall sensor as well for better accuracy. I have a bit of room at the front of the motor. I have a custom crank pulley but if I have to, I'll turn up another one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LDjmlCWswdjEKW3W09urmrg4ii5iLzkw/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tr2m1jw7qV-q2jfQgSA-oVSP42XuiOnv/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LeW2Whscg8DPQSzWOfTLQZJQoGOlqJpT/view?usp=sharing

[Adamw]

Yes I can imagine getting to the flywheel would be a major pain in one of those.  

24-1, 36-1, or 36-2 on the front would all be good options.  I wouldnt be too fussed about hall or VR, as long as the tooth design suits the sensor.  VR typically needs short sharp teeth with a half depth missing tooth area while hall effect typically need bigger/longer teeth.  VR is actually more accurate and has better signal to noise ratio at high speed (when it matters) - but not anything you would notice on an engine like this.  

You could possibly even cut teeth directly into the OD of the balancer (if that is what the red thing is).  

[Mike928]

2 minutes ago, Adamw said:

Yes I can imagine getting to the flywheel would be a major pain in one of those.  

24-1, 36-1, or 36-2 on the front would all be good options.  I wouldnt be too fussed about hall or VR, as long as the tooth design suits the sensor.  VR typically needs short sharp teeth with a half depth missing tooth area while hall effect typically need bigger/longer teeth.  VR is actually more accurate and has better signal to noise ratio at high speed (when it matters) - but not anything you would notice on an engine like this.  

You could possibly even cut teeth directly into the OD of the balancer (if that is what the red thing is).  

I just looked on your site at the tooth wheels and sensor you sell, are any of these suitable?

[Adamw]

Yes, for either of the 24T ones, I would grind a tooth off to make it 24-1.  The missing tooth gives faster sync and means the position of the cam sensor is not critical.  The 60-2 would be fine also, but it is quite big at 200mm dia.  The crank sensor we sell is a VR type from a ford focus I think, they work well with the tooth size on any of our wheels.  

If you want something more specific, I have various 3D models I can generate a custom size dxf that you could get laser cut locally.  

[Mike928]

16 hours ago, Adamw said:

Yes, for either of the 24T ones, I would grind a tooth off to make it 24-1.  The missing tooth gives faster sync and means the position of the cam sensor is not critical.  The 60-2 would be fine also, but it is quite big at 200mm dia.  The crank sensor we sell is a VR type from a ford focus I think, they work well with the tooth size on any of our wheels.  

If you want something more specific, I have various 3D models I can generate a custom size dxf that you could get laser cut locally.  

Thanks Adam, I'll get to my workshop in the next day or so and work on what size I can best get in there. I'm a bit interested in the 'cut teeth directly into the OD of the balancer' idea but it gets cramped in there and of course the outer ring of the HB is mounted on rubber, so it's off limits. It is keyed to the crank where as the pulley I would have to 'pin' somehow before fixing the tooth wheel to it.

The Link crank sensor quotes a range of voltages, is there a 'preferred' voltage for operation?

[Adamw]

12 minutes ago, Mike928 said:

The Link crank sensor quotes a range of voltages, is there a 'preferred' voltage for operation?

You had me confused for a minute but I forgot we had recently added the hall effect one.  I was talking about our VR one: https://dealers.linkecu.com/CAS_3  I generally go for VR where I can due to the more simple wiring and better noise immunity.

But if the threaded hall effect was easier then the 8V supply on pin A6 is a nice option for the power supply.  If you went for a 60-2 wheel with that sensor then I would add a 1.8K pull-up resistor into the wiring, the 24-1 options wouldn't need the extra pull-up.  

 

24 minutes ago, Mike928 said:

I'm a bit interested in the 'cut teeth directly into the OD of the balancer' idea but it gets cramped in there and of course the outer ring of the HB is mounted on rubber, so it's off limits. It is keyed to the crank where as the pulley I would have to 'pin' somehow before fixing the tooth wheel to it.

I have cut directly onto the rubber mounted ring before where I haven't had much room to play with due to dry sump etc - with no apparent issues at the time. Im pretty sure many BMW's even do this from factory.  I dont think the torsional vibration is enough to cause noticeable timing error, but you are right if the rubber bond ever failed then it could certainly cause an issue.   

[928sg]

factory balancers are 30 years old at best, and new ones are NLA.   I'd recommend one of the ATi balancers, and that would give you something to attach a wheel to.   Which flywheel are you running that is so difficult to get out?

[Mike928]

5 minutes ago, 928sg said:

factory balancers are 30 years old at best, and new ones are NLA.   I'd recommend one of the ATi balancers, and that would give you something to attach a wheel to.   Which flywheel are you running that is so difficult to get out?

The stock '86 Auto flywheel. There is about 1mm of clearance from the ring gear/bell housing and about 10-15mm from the bell housing to the fire wall and the flywheel is tight onto a boss about 13mm long. Easy enough to move the flex plate back a fair bit but the drive shaft is still there.

There is an ATI onn with a 24 tooth trigger wheel on it!

[Mike928]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:26 PM, Adamw said:

You had me confused for a minute but I forgot we had recently added the hall effect one.  I was talking about our VR one: https://dealers.linkecu.com/CAS_3  I generally go for VR where I can due to the more simple wiring and better noise immunity.

But if the threaded hall effect was easier then the 8V supply on pin A6 is a nice option for the power supply.  If you went for a 60-2 wheel with that sensor then I would add a 1.8K pull-up resistor into the wiring, the 24-1 options wouldn't need the extra pull-up.  

 

I have cut directly onto the rubber mounted ring before where I haven't had much room to play with due to dry sump etc - with no apparent issues at the time. Im pretty sure many BMW's even do this from factory.  I dont think the torsional vibration is enough to cause noticeable timing error, but you are right if the rubber bond ever failed then it could certainly cause an issue.   

Adam, I have a plan. A 180mm OD trigger wheel 36-1 teeth. I need that diameter to clear the HB, any bigger and there's stuff in the way. I can mount it to the front face of the HB which is part of the hub casting not the vibration ring [there isn't much room around that]. I have 5mm clearance from the first belt and the trigger wheel is 4mm thick, so it will fit.

I've ordered a Link VR sensor, 2 pin, so am I right in thinking I just have to extend the ECU trigger 1 sensor and sensor ground wires to the new Link sensor and forget the shield wire?

Next will be sensor position. There are so many suggestions out there that they can't all be right. I think I need front edge of tooth [rising edge], centre of trigger on that point but what range BTDC? It seems 0-60 degrees before TC ok?