No trigger signals on COP kit.

[Clattie]

I've also tried this way and still no luck. This is how I originally had it. Maybe the ECU is faulty?

[DerekAE86]

Well the reason you currently have 5v on the Signal wire is because you're pulling it up to 5v via the pull-up resistor between ECU 5v and SIgnal.

[Clattie]

I've had 5v as the supply voltage to with no change, this is what I originally had it as.

 

Still not grounding.

[DerekAE86]

These are the 4 ways it should work. What you currently have it wired as in your picture won't work.

[DerekAE86]

Other things I can think of: What is your source of 5v? Are you using the "Sensor 5v pin"? And what is your source of GND? A power/chassis GND or the Sensor GND?

I'm pretty sure all you need to do is connect it to the same switched 12v that is supplying the ECU and the same power ground the ECU is using.
If for some reason you've configured one of the ECU aux out pins to use as the supply voltage I'm not sure that's a good idea.

[Clattie]

So I originally had it configured as option 3 (3rd from the left) but it still wouldn't ground. I'll have to order some 2.4k resistors andtry the 4th option to see if that works.
Tomorrow i will try option 1 and 2.

 

I'm using the ecu 5v pin, all my other sensors are using this too.

 

I'm also using sensor ground and not chassis ground.

 

The picture below is how I originally had it wired but still no luck, FYI the 5v supply for both the sensor and resistor are on the same pin but it was easier to draw/represent this way.

 

[Adamw]

4 hours ago, Clattie said:

I've included this diagram to show you my exact setup... is something wrong?

This wiring is fine.  

 

5 hours ago, Clattie said:

1k ohm resistor between 5v and signal which is reading around 0.988 ohms.

I hope you mean 0.988 kiloohms?

 

5 hours ago, Clattie said:

I've just noticed the signal wire is sat at around 5v too? Surely this is a problem?

Its meant to be, this is what the pull-up is for.  The sensor should short it to ground when there is iron in front of it.  

 

4 hours ago, Clattie said:

I've shoved the prongs down the back of the connector with the sensor installed and everything is powered up, sensor is dropping from 5v to 0v just fine...

So when you are measuring 0V at the sensor connector, if you do a scope capture does it also show 0V?

 

 

2 hours ago, DerekAE86 said:

That isn't how you want to wire it. You're mixing 12v supply and 5v pull-up onto the Signal.

It is actually fine, the ecu only needs to see more than 2V to see a signal.  So 5V or 12V pull-up is perfectly fine, there is no relationship with the power supply to the sensor, this is just to power the electronics inside it.  

[DerekAE86]

7 minutes ago, Adamw said:

It is actually fine, the ecu only needs to see more than 2V to see a signal.  So 5V or 12V pull-up is perfectly fine, there is no relationship with the power supply to the sensor, this is just to power the electronics inside it.  

Ah ok. That makes sense. But if the 12v in this case is just to power the sensor should the ground be power ground rather than sensor ground?

 

1 hour ago, Clattie said:

So I originally had it configured as option 3 (3rd from the left) but it still wouldn't ground. I'll have to order some 2.4k resistors andtry the 4th option to see if that works.

The size of the resistor shouldn't really matter for the sake of making it work.
If the current setup isn't working then trying the 4th option with a 2.4k resistor won't work either.
 

[Clattie]

 

11 minutes ago, Adamw said:

This wiring is fine.

Happy days, i'll be switching back to my 5v setup though for ease of wiring.

11 minutes ago, Adamw said:

I hope you mean 0.988 kiloohms?

 

Yes, my bad.

11 minutes ago, Adamw said:

Its meant to be, this is what the pull-up is for.  The sensor should short it to ground when there is iron in front of it.  

It does, but not on the trigger scope.

12 minutes ago, Adamw said:

So when you are measuring 0V at the sensor connector, if you do a scope capture does it also show 0V?

No, the sensor will not short to 0v on the trigger scope... Only with a multimeter shoved down the back of the sensor while it's connected. Trigger scope stays at around 4.5v no matter what, it's also not a flat line.

12 minutes ago, Adamw said:

It is actually fine, the ecu only needs to see more than 2V to see a signal.  So 5V or 12V pull-up is perfectly fine, there is no relationship with the power supply to the sensor, this is just to power the electronics inside it.

I've switched back to 5v anyways, i just wanted to see if it made a difference.

2 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

Ah ok. That makes sense. But if the 12v in this case is just to power the sensor should the ground be power ground rather than sensor ground?

It won't matter anyways as I've initially tested the whole setup with 5v as the supply and 5v reference for the pull-up. I just wanted to test if 5v made a difference.

 

 

3 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

The size of the resistor shouldn't really matter for the sake of making it work.
If the current setup isn't working then trying the 4th option with a 2.4k resistor won't work either.

I don't know what to do then I'm stumped. Maybe send the ECU and a sensor off to link for diagnostics?

[Adamw]

4 minutes ago, Clattie said:

No, the sensor will not short to 0v on the trigger scope... Only with a multimeter shoved down the back of the sensor while it's connected. Trigger scope stays at around 4.5v no matter what, it's also not a flat line.

In one of the earlier tests I got you to do, shorting the ground pin to the signal pin in the sensor plug, you said the triggerscope showed 0V when you done that.  Can you do this test again because that is exactly what the sensor does - shorts signal to ground.  

[Clattie]

Just now, Adamw said:

In one of the earlier tests I got you to do, shorting the ground pin to the signal pin in the sensor plug, you said the triggerscope showed 0V when you done that.  Can you do this test again because that is exactly what the sensor does - shorts signal to ground.  

Yes if I do that the trigger scope goes straight to 0v, but with the sensor plugged in it doesn't. Honestly doesn't make sense...

However, I've shoved both probs down the back with it plugged into the harness and the sensor itself is shorting just fine.. I also tested it on the bench, shorting just fine again.

[DerekAE86]

30 minutes ago, Clattie said:

Yes if I do that the trigger scope goes straight to 0v, but with the sensor plugged in it doesn't. Honestly doesn't make sense...

However, I've shoved both probs down the back with it plugged into the harness and the sensor itself is shorting just fine.. I also tested it on the bench, shorting just fine again.

If the sensor drops to 0v on the bench when putting something metal in front of it. And the ECU scope drops to 0v when you short the signal wire to ground.
Then both the sensor and the car wiring is working. If it doesn't work then either the sensor isn't close enough to the trigger wheel or your trigger wheel isn't metal lol.

[Adamw]

It is a very simple concept - effectively a switch that shorts a wire to ground, it shouldn't be difficult to diagnose.  If you have 0V at the sensor signal pin then you should have 0V at the ecu trigger pin and you should see 0V on the trigger scope.  Go back and see which one of those isn't true.

[Clattie]

3 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

If the sensor drops to 0v on the bench when putting something metal in front of it. And the ECU scope drops to 0v when you short the signal wire to ground.

That's the problem the ECU scope doesn't drop to 0 unless I manually bridge signal and signal ground with a cable. It's not making any sense lol

4 minutes ago, Adamw said:

It is a very simple concept - effectively a switch that shorts a wire to ground, it shouldn't be difficult to diagnose.  If you have 0V at the sensor signal pin then you should have 0V at the ecu trigger pin and you should see 0V on the trigger scope.  Go back and see which one of those isn't true.

I'll try getting the multimeter on the ECU PIN tomorrow to see if that drops to 0, someone else also mentioned that they ran the same sensor and had to use 12v and the internal pull-up to get it to work... Not the first time I've heard that either.

We will see what the result with the multimeter is tomorrow but I can't see any change as it works just fine with a wire bridge.

[DerekAE86]

30 minutes ago, Clattie said:

I'll try getting the multimeter on the ECU PIN tomorrow to see if that drops to 0

If the Sig pin is 5v at rest then the pull-up is wired correctly, and as you've said the ECU trigger scope is dropping to 0v when you have the sensor unplugged and bridging/shorting the Sig pin to Ground so the ECU is seeing a change on the Signal pin and it's working. Checking it with a multi-meter won't give you a different result.

The only thing I can think is assuming you're bridging the Ground to Sig pin within the harness side of the DT12 plug and it works - then you have an open circuit on the sensor side of within the DT12 plug.

With the sensor plugged into try probing into the back of the sensor side DT12 plug between Sig and Ground. You should get 5v between them.
Then try probing between Power and Ground and you should get 12v (assuming you've still got it powered by 12v).

If you don't get 5v or 12v. The Ground pin is open circuit. (So will never drop to 0v)
If you get 5v but not 12v then the Power pin is open circuit. (So the Hall sensor circuitry isn't powered so isn't functioning)

Or you've wired the Power pin to a 12v source that disappears when the engine is cranking.

[Clattie]

44 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

The only thing I can think is assuming you're bridging the Ground to Sig pin within the harness side of the DT12 plug and it works - then you have an open circuit on the sensor side of within the DT12 plug.

Nope, I bridged it at the plug for the sensor right at the end of the harness.

 

44 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

Or you've wired the Power pin to a 12v source that disappears when the engine is cranking

As I was just testing this temporarily I wired it straight from the battery so it was a constant 12v.

This is what I mean, it's just not making any sense, as it works fine but the trigger scope isn't detecting the change with the sensor plugged in, however a multimeter is detecting the short.

It's just showing this constantly no matter what I do... Cranking, Not Cranking, Holding multiple objects in front of it, tapping multiple objects on it. (But on the other hand, the multimeter is showing it drop from 4.5v to 0v so the sensor is definitely okay. And we know the harness is okay because we've shorted the signal and signal ground at the sensor plug and it's showing 0v on the trigger scope.
 

 

[DerekAE86]

15 minutes ago, Clattie said:

Nope, I bridged it at the plug for the sensor right at the end of the harness.

Yes that's what I said. To confirm: you've done this and it works?
(Sensor unplugged and pins bridged at the harness/ECU side plug)

I'm saying try this to confirm there isn't a break in the wiring/pin connection in the sensor side of the plug:
(Plug the sensor in and probe in the back of the wiring on the sensor side plug for 5v)

 

8 hours ago, Clattie said:

ALL TEST ON HARNESS SIDE IN ENGINE BAY.

SIGNAL - Multimeter on Signal and Grounded to engine head (Around 5v)

 

SIGNAL GROUND - Multimeter on Signal Ground and Grounded to engine head (Around 0v)

 

5V SUPPLY -  Multimeter on 5v Supply and Grounded to Engine Head (Around 5v)

Also back here you're saying you're testing between the pins and the engine head.

You have to test with respect to the Ground pin IN THE PLUG. Because if that's open circuit it's not going to work.
When you say it's "0v between Signal Ground and the Engine head" that doesn't mean anything. It will show 0v if it's open circuit too.
Check for resistance/continuity from the Signal Ground pin back to the ECU.

[Clattie]

27 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

Also back here you're saying you're testing between the pins and the engine head.

You have to test with respect to the Ground pin IN THE PLUG. Because if that's open circuit it's not going to work.
When you say it's "0v between Signal Ground and the Engine head" that doesn't mean anything. It will show 0v if it's open circuit too.
Check for resistance/continuity from the Signal Ground pin back to the ECU.

Sorry, I think there's been some confusion here I was just showing what values I was getting at the sensor plug end.

The two images below are how I've been testing, so surely wouldn't need to check the center Deutch dt12 plug. (I didn't include the 3 way plug in the last diagram)

1st image - Testing the sensor with a multimeter (sensor shorts to 0v when bringing object up to the front of it)
 

2nd image - Testing to see if the trigger scope shorts to 0v (Which it does with the bridge in place)

This is why I don't have a clue why the trigger scope isn't shorting to 0v with the sensor plugged in and an object in front... As every other variable is working fine!

[DerekAE86]

17 minutes ago, Clattie said:

1st image - Testing the sensor with a multimeter (sensor shorts to 0v when bringing object up to the front of it)

If you've drawn this image correctly then you're doing it wrong. Because it's showing you checking between Signal and Power. If you're reading 0v that means the Signal wire is actually at 12v when something is in-front of the sensor. If you're checking two pins that are both at 12v the meter will read 0v because there's no potential difference between them.

You should be checking between Ground and Signal to see it 12v when no object and 0v when an object is in front of it.

[Clattie]

20 minutes ago, DerekAE86 said:

If you've drawn this image correctly then you're doing it wrong. Because it's showing you checking between Signal and Power. If you're reading 0v that means the Signal wire is actually at 12v when something is in-front of the sensor. If you're checking two pins that are both at 12v the meter will read 0v because there's no potential difference between them.

You should be checking between Ground and Signal to see it 12v when no object and 0v when an object is in front of it.

Sorry again, its 2am here so I'm not really thinking.

 

I had the multimeter between signal and ground in which I got 5V (I'm not using 12v that was just a quick test earlier)

 

I put an object infront and it shorted to 0v which is perfect.

 

But still not shorting in the trigger scope. (Althought it shorts in the trigger scope when bridges with a cable).

[DerekAE86]

3 minutes ago, Clattie said:

But still not shorting in the trigger scope. (Althought it shorts in the trigger scope when bridges with a cable).

Is it possible that you've wired the signal ground and signal pins swapped?

[Clattie]

No, all of my wiring is colour coded and it's all been check about 10 times just because of this issue. I've also done continuity checks down the harness just to double confirm.

[DerekAE86]

If the sensor works on the bench, the harness is pinned correctly / passes continuity tests and the ecu trigger scope sees a change when you manually short the signal pin to ground then the sensor, wiring and ecu are all working.

It's not possible for it not to work once these 3 things are combined.

Sounds like you need a completely fresh set of eyes on this because you might be blind to the mistake after checking everything so many times.

[Clattie]

Sounds like it could potentially help. I'll rip it apart tomorrow and start from the ground up. If all else fails I'll try the 12v method someone else mentioned.

One more thing I keep banging on about is how my Trigger scope looks? Mine doesn't look like anyone else's.

[koracing]

I would say your trigger scope looks exactly like no trigger signal and just noise, but the voltage amplitude is higher than I normally see (granted I am usually looking at reluctor signals, and not hall effect).

Have you tried unplugging one of the sensors at a time and seeing if the other one shows up in a scope?  I got no good ideas on this one.