No trigger signals on COP kit.

[Adamw]

2 hours ago, Clattie said:

One more thing I keep banging on about is how my Trigger scope looks? Mine doesn't look like anyone else's.

Your scope looks normal.  It only has 8 bit resolution spread over something like 40 or 50V range and no filtering in hall effect mode so when the signal is not changing and the time plot auto-scales the y axis they always look "noisy".   Even if there was extreme noise it is not going to stop a signal from reaching the ecu.  

[Clattie]

4 hours ago, Adamw said:

Your scope looks normal.  It only has 8 bit resolution spread over something like 40 or 50V range and no filtering in hall effect mode so when the signal is not changing and the time plot auto-scales the y axis they always look "noisy".   Even if there was extreme noise it is not going to stop a signal from reaching the ecu.  

Makes sense then, so the filtering would make that look more "readable"? 
I'm going to start fresh with the wiring again today and follow the circuit one by one.

7 hours ago, koracing said:

I would say your trigger scope looks exactly like no trigger signal and just noise, but the voltage amplitude is higher than I normally see (granted I am usually looking at reluctor signals, and not hall effect).

Have you tried unplugging one of the sensors at a time and seeing if the other one shows up in a scope?  I got no good ideas on this one.

Crank is currently unplugged anyways as it's a pain to access, you know mr2's.

[Clattie]

Right!!! I connected it to 12v, cut the external resistor, and activated the internal pull-up like another MR2 Owner said and it worked first time.

But I've taken screenshots of my trigger scope window (The crank sensor is not plugged in at the moment) just to make sure everything looks okay. As I'm not 100% with trigger scopes.
 

[koracing]

That scope looks usable to me for trig2.

[Clattie]

Here's both my Cam and C

2 minutes ago, koracing said:

That scope looks usable to me for trig2.

I've just ran both cam and crank and they both seem to be working, I'm running a 60-2 wheel.

I test-cranked the engine with the fuel pump running and i heard it turned over for a second, 2nd time cranking it backfired. is that normal or will i have to alter something? 

I'm running the link base map, stock engine with with custom everything including turbo, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, catch can etc etc...

[koracing]

Backfiring usually means the timing is off.  I would disable the injectors, put a timing light on a plug wire fitted between the #1 coil and the #1 spark plug, And see where your timing mark is.

[Clattie]

1 hour ago, koracing said:

Backfiring usually means the timing is off.  I would disable the injectors, put a timing light on a plug wire fitted between the #1 coil and the #1 spark plug, And see where your timing mark is.

I know the timing on the engine is set up or are you referring to software timing as I'm now using direct spark? 

I just had a quick look online and I need to get a timing light so I can basically set the TDC mark for the ECU? As it technically doesn't know where the engine reaches TDC?

I'll purchase a timing light tonight... Is it just a case of marking the 0 TDC on the crank and belt, cranking the engine over, and adjusting the timing in the ECU settings until the mark lines up with 15?  I'm going to assume that means the coils will fire 15 degrees before TDC as the ignition timing is locked to 15 degrees on the base map as seen below in the 2nd attachment.
 

[koracing]

Yes you will use a timing light on a spark tester or old plug wire with the distributor cap end cut off and shoved into the end of your COP cyl 1 coil.  You can do this test with all other plugs out and the other 3 coils disconnected to improve cranking speed.  Then you compare your timing light reading versus the timing set in that set timing window (15 in your pic and what I would normally use on a 3SGTE as it's the left most mark, and easiest to see with a straight down view in the car), and adjust the offset value until both the laptop timing value and the timing light match up (be sure to hit enter when you make a change for it to actually take affect), then once they are synced up you can click ok to get out of that calibration window and it shoudl be good to go.  Usually with 3SGTE engines and COP you have to subtract 360deg from the timing offset.  So I would start with -360deg instead of 0.

[Clattie]

1 hour ago, koracing said:

Yes you will use a timing light on a spark tester or old plug wire with the distributor cap end cut off and shoved into the end of your COP cyl 1 coil.

I can also just hold the plug open on top of the coil too? As I don't have any old plugs.

 

1 hour ago, koracing said:

and adjust the offset value until both the laptop timing value and the timing light match up

So would I mark 0 or 15 degrees as my timing light point on the belt/housing? 15 I'm guessing as that's what I've locked my timing reference to.

 

1 hour ago, koracing said:

Usually with 3SGTE engines and COP you have to subtract 360deg from the timing offset.  So I would start with -360deg instead of 0

Okay, I'll change that now so it's ready for when the timing light comes.

[koracing]

If it's a 3SGTE you already have a 15 degree mark - the left most mark on the timing belt cover as you look down on it from the side of the car.  

9 minutes ago, Clattie said:

I can also just hold the plug open on top of the coil too? As I don't have any old plugs.

If you don't have any old spark plug wires, you can pick up a spark tester at the auto parts store also when you pick up the timing light (the spark tester is basically a plug wire with a little light that flashes inline).  You have to be able to clamp the inductive clamp from the timing light around a wire for it to work.  And for that inductive clamp to work, current has to be flowing through that wire.  So the plug it's attached to would need to be grounded - installed in the head is best.  

Spark Tester:
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/lisle/lisle-spark-tester/lis0/20610?q=spark+tester&pos=0

[Clattie]

2 minutes ago, koracing said:

If it's a 3SGTE you already have a 15 degree mark - the left most mark on the timing belt cover as you look down on it from the side of the car. 

I know but where would I place my reference mark on the belt? Would I mark 0 and keep changing the offset until it reaches 15 btdc or mark 15 and change the offset until it reaches 15 btdc?

 

3 minutes ago, koracing said:

If you don't have any old spark plug wires, you can pick up a spark tester at the auto parts store also when you pick up the timing light (the spark tester is basically a plug wire with a little light that flashes inline).  You have to be able to clamp the inductive clamp from the timing light around a wire for it to work.  And for that inductive clamp to work, current has to be flowing through that wire.  So the plug it's attached to would need to be grounded - installed in the head is best.  

I'll see if anyone has some lying around, if not I'll use one of them 

[koracing]

You're not marking any belt.  Your crank pulley should have a zero mark/line.  Adding some white paint from a paint pen works well to highlight this mark and make it easier to see while checking timing.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/66onk605am4zd2u/3sgte_Crank_Timing_Marks.jpg?dl=0

[Clattie]

16 minutes ago, koracing said:

You're not marking any belt.  Your crank pulley should have a zero mark/line.  Adding some white paint from a paint pen works well to highlight this mark and make it easier to see while checking timing.

That's what I meant by marking sorry, highlighting the marks with a pen.

 

So I'd highlight the numbers and crank Pulley mark, Then do I try to get the marking on 0 or 15 while the timing light is firing? I'm guessing 15 because you want to fire the coil just before tdc?

[koracing]

You want to see the timing mark line up with 15 when you have 15 as the reference timing in the software calibration window.

[Clattie]

Just now, koracing said:

You want to see the timing mark line up with 15 when you have 15 as the reference timing in the software calibration window.

Righhhtttt, Some other people have mentioned that they used the 10 mark foe their 3s and 5s builds on the link forum.

 

What difference does that mark? And if I did go that route I'd just change the reference to 10 and then fiddle with the offset until it reaches 10 correct?

[koracing]

If you changed that reference number to 10, you would want to see the timing light showing the crank pulley mark at 10.  If you set it to zero, then you would want to see it at zero.  I recommend 15 as it is the easiest to see straight on and avoid parallax vision with the engine installed in the engine bay.   With the engine installed in the car, you can't ever actually see the zero mark straight on because there's a car in the way (*in an MR2*).  15 is the mark you can most accurately look at and line up from the position you can view the crank pulley at.

Parallax vision exercise: Hold up two fingers on the same hand making a "peace" sign about a foot out from your face.  Close one eye and turn your hand until you can't see the second finger behind the first finger.  Now while keeping your hand in this orientation, move your head side to side and you will now be able to see both fingers again as your eye is no longer lined up with the plane both fingers are residing in.  

[Clattie]

Makes the most sense, I was just curious to see if it made any difference? Literally just a reference for timing and nothing more then.

[DerekAE86]

3 hours ago, Clattie said:

Makes the most sense, I was just curious to see if it made any difference? Literally just a reference for timing and nothing more then.

It's literally just to sync the ECU's engine position to the actual engine position. The number you use is inconsequential as long as the ref number in the software matches what the crank pulley is showing when the timing light is flashing by the end of the calibration process. It's just common to use 0-20deg as that's the timing marks provided on the plastic covers by most engine manufacturers.

[Clattie]

So I've just changed the ignition offset to 15 and now the crank pulley mark and 15 line up when cranking.

Gave it one test crank but it backfired again, like 8 pm here so I doubt the neighbors are happy XD

Any advice on getting it to start? I'm running 41psi fuel pressure FYI, gen 3 3sgte.

edit - timing offset was out by 5 degree, parallax effect lol, too dark to see out there. But I did crank it again for around 5 seconds no start... battery bogged and went flat then.

any other things I need to do before first start? And should i modulate the throttle as i crank? Ive not set any idling up yet, just the base map with all sensors calibrated, cop setup and e throttle is working in test mode.

[Vaughan]

try changing your offset by 360deg, timing light on crank only shows the crank is in the right position not that the cam is in the correct half of it's cycle.

15 becomes -345

[Clattie]

Just now, Vaughan said:

try changing your offset by 360deg, timing light on crank only shows the crank is in the right position not that the cam is in the correct half of it's cycle.

15 becomes -345

Right so the cam could be at the opposite end of its cycle (Exhaust stroke and piston on its exhuast cycle) rather than near the top of its compression stroke?

 

I'll give it another crank tomorrow with a fully charged battery, If it backfires again I'll try -345.

 

Assuming I'll need to modulate the throttle as I do this?

[Vaughan]

9 minutes ago, Clattie said:

Right so the cam could be at the opposite end of its cycle (Exhaust stroke and piston on its exhuast cycle) rather than near the top of its compression stroke?

yes, crank is at the same position for both end of exhaust out stroke/start of intake in as it is for end of compression/start of power stroke and changing the offset by 360 will swap between these two points.

[Clattie]

12 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

yes, crank is at the same position for both end of exhaust out stroke/start of intake in as it is for end of compression/start of power stroke and changing the offset by 360 will swap between these two points.

By the sounds of it, that's the issue as there will be fuel in the cylinder and hardly any air when it's igniting cause a really rich mixture and a backfire to follow?

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, Clattie said:

By the sounds of it, that's the issue as there will be fuel in the cylinder and hardly any air when it's igniting cause a really rich mixture and a backfire to follow?

In my experience backfires do tend to be because of 360 out, you're igniting the mixture just as it starts to suck in air and fuel and so it shoots out the intake

[Clattie]

2 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In my experience backfires do tend to be because of 360 out, you're igniting the mixture just as it starts to suck in air and fuel and so it shoots out the intake

I didnt think about that, luckily I've capped off one of the ports on my intake with this special rubber tape we use at work so it should of acted as a pressure release. I'll have to see if it's come off.

 

I'll update tomorrow on the results!