4AGE 16V, cranking but not starting

[fast4motion]

ECU is a G4x Atom, and engine is running coil on plug, using the distributor (24-1 teeth) for CAS signal. The single tooth is lined up with the sensor at TDC (firing stroke).

We're using a base tune from MRP (where the Link was purchased from).

Could you have a look at the attached tune and triggerscope (captured while cranking) to see if there are any obvious issues.

Also, MAP sensor (factory Toyota vacuum sensor) isn't calibrated, but would that affect it trying to fire when cranking? I selected some of the obvious sensors from the menu, but all were outside limits to allow calibration, so left it as per base tune custom settings.

Thanks

4AGE 16V AtomX COP_Ford SN137a.pclx

[DerekAE86]

While your trigger looks clean on the scope your trigger arming threshold doesn't look low enough on Trigger 2.

It's currently set to 0.5v but your Trigger 2 is only hitting 0.46v on that scope.

Also your trigger offset and ref timing don't look correct. Have you calibrated your timing with a timing light?

[Adamw]

You should attach the actual scope file rather than a pic, we cant see any of the important info from the pic.  But I agree with Derek's comment, you only have a freckle over 0.2V on both trig 1 and 2 so you need to lower both trig 1 and trig 2 arming thresholds to 0.2V in the 500RPM cell.  Probably drop the 1000RPM cell to 0.5V also. 

If still no joy with those changes then do a new scope capture and attach the actual file.  

I suspect your trigger offset will be close to 0 rather than 360, but try both if you have spark but it doesnt fire.

Below is the cal I have from a 20V MAP sensor, not sure if the 16V one is the same or not.

[fast4motion]

Thanks guys. I did wonder about the trigger threshold, but thought I'd get some advice before adjusting the settings, as I don't have experience in this sort of thing. I usually just wire them up, but a mate asked me if I could also try to get it running for him.

The trigger offset is as per the supplied basetune, so will change it as suggested if spark timing is significantly out, and will also try those MAP settings.

I didn't attach the scope file because it wasn't showing anything, but since realised that was due to the parameters selected in my view. I'll capture another one and upload it if I don't have any luck with the changes.

[DerekAE86]

This could be a feature request for @Vaughan

What about including a trace in the trigger scope for the current trigger arm threshold settings.
That way you could see live in the scope if you've reached (or overshooting) your threshold.

[Adamw]

1 hour ago, fast4motion said:

The trigger offset is as per the supplied basetune, so will change it as suggested if spark timing is significantly out,

The trigger offset is how far the first trigger 1 tooth after the sync tooth is away from TDC.  So it will be different depending which tooth the original guy chose to keep.  And the timing wont "appear to be out", it will look exactly the same at 360 or 0 when checking with a timing light pointing at the crank - just it will be sparking on TDC exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke.  

[Adamw]

1 minute ago, DerekAE86 said:

What about including a trace in the trigger scope for the current trigger arm threshold settings.
That way you could see live in the scope if you've reached (or overshooting) your threshold.

The "signal" channels in the scope capture show you whether you reached the threshold or not and if you did reach it, what it was at the time that specific tooth passed the sensor.  The rising edge of the signal channel is at the point that the arming threshold was met and the falling edge is where the ecu saw the waveform crossing zero.  

As an example, the yellow cursor below on the trig 1 signal rising edge shows the arming threshold was 1.04V at that point in time.  And the pink line shows the same on trig 2.

 

[DerekAE86]

Oh it already does. Silly me - I should look closer before asking hahah

[koracing]

10 hours ago, Adamw said:

The trigger offset is how far the first trigger 1 tooth after the sync tooth is away from TDC.  So it will be different depending which tooth the original guy chose to keep.  And the timing wont "appear to be out", it will look exactly the same at 360 or 0 when checking with a timing light pointing at the crank - just it will be sparking on TDC exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke.  

The timing can be 360 out and still run fine on a distributor based setup (just firing the one coil and the rotor position is what determines which one is firing).  This is probably whey every V1/V2/V3 3SGTE I've seen needs 360 added or subtracted to the offset when going to coil on plug as the Link base at zero is "180 out" or one crank revolution off from correct.

[Adamw]

Yes I understand how a distributor works, but this engine is direct spark so there is only one offset that will allow it to run. 

He said his sync tooth is pointing at the sensor when the engine is at TDC firing stroke so his offset should be somewhere close to zero, but his map has it set to 360, hence my comment that the timing may look correct but it wont run.  

[fast4motion]

I had a chance to make the recommended adjustments after work today, but it still wouldn't fire. I tried the trigger offset at both 0 and 360deg. I haven't had time to connect a timing light or check for spark, but will try as soon as I can. In the meantime I'll attach a triggerscope file in case you guys might see something obvious.

On the plus side, the cal table settings provided for the 20V MAP sensor calibrated successfully.

 

TriggerScopeLog3.llgx

[Adamw]

The ecu is happy with the trigger in that scope capture.  Do a PC log of it cranking next time too and attach a copy of your current tune will be helpful.

[koracing]

Timing light is a good bet.  Be careful when connecting a timing light to a coil on plug coil - it will most reliabley work well if you connect its inductive clamp to an old plug wire or spark test connected between the coil output and the spark plug.  Putting the inductive clamp over a trigger wire or wires does not always show correct timing. 

A trigger scope with plugs 2, 3, and 4 removed could also help to see where it is getting compression on cylinder 1 relative to the trigger signals. 

[fast4motion]

I've attached a PC Log of it cranking, and the current tune. I see the battery voltage is dropping quite a bit, so will put it on charge overnight. It was well charged on previous starting attempts.

I removed coil #1 and attached a plug wire I keep for checking COP timing purposes, with the timing light clamped to this lead. The light WAS flashing, however I was on my own so couldn't reach the crank pulley timing marks to check actual timing. The upper timing cover isn't fitted, so when I have someone to help I was hoping to also point the timing light at the cam pulleys, to see if the dots line up with TDC firing stroke vs exhaust stroke.

PC Datalog - 2023-04-5 5;04;02 pm.llgx 4AGE 16V AtomX COP_Ford SN137b.pclx

[fast4motion]

Okay, sorry guys. After replying above I got to thinking that it really should attempt to fire and start if it's getting a trigger signal and spark (and presumably fuel).

I forgot to mention that my mate fitted ITB's, so there's no Idle Air Control. So I thought maybe it's the throttle set-up, as he's not very mechanically minded. I tried starting again with plenty of throttle, and it fired up. It runs like garbage, revs seem to hang, and it dies without throttle. I'll see if I can adjust the ITB's for idle and recalibrate the TPS, and hopefully be able to more accurately set the base timing.

In the meantime, would really appreciate if you can have a look at the tune and see if it looks to be reasonable starting point.

Also, do you know why the Aux Outputs have starting showing a fault? The fuel pump is working, and the fan works in test mode (tacho isn't connected atm).

Thanks.

[essb00]

Your battery voltage drops too much while cranking - so cranking speed seem too low and so the trigger arming voltages are barely being reached.
Also try trigger offset 350° or 360°

If there's no IACV, then why you have selected ISC mode 'Open Loop', and Actuator Type '3 wire solenoid'?

[Adamw]

Most of the fundamentals look ok in that log, with the exception of battery voltage as essb00 suggests.  You only have 6.0-9.2V when cranking, you should have more like 10.5V average when cranking.

Were you moving the throttle during that log?  It shows zero the whole time and the voltage on AN V2 is lower than the voltage that is set in your TPS cal.  You need a working TPS as your fuel table load axis is TPS.  Either it hasn't been calibrated or there is an issue with it.  

 

[fast4motion]

18 hours ago, essb00 said:

Your battery voltage drops too much while cranking - so cranking speed seem too low and so the trigger arming voltages are barely being reached.
Also try trigger offset 350° or 360°

If there's no IACV, then why you have selected ISC mode 'Open Loop', and Actuator Type '3 wire solenoid'?

Battery voltage while cranking is better now that I've charged it. Trigger offset of 0.0° got it started and running. I didn't make the ISC selections, they're as per the supplied base tune. I have no idea if the tuner knew whether or not it had ITB's and/or no IACV.

[fast4motion]

18 hours ago, Adamw said:

Most of the fundamentals look ok in that log, with the exception of battery voltage as essb00 suggests.  You only have 6.0-9.2V when cranking, you should have more like 10.5V average when cranking.

Were you moving the throttle during that log?  It shows zero the whole time and the voltage on AN V2 is lower than the voltage that is set in your TPS cal.  You need a working TPS as your fuel table load axis is TPS.  Either it hasn't been calibrated or there is an issue with it.  

 

I wasn't moving the throttle during that log. The TPS was calibrated, but I think the extra return spring he added was causing an inconsistent closed position. 

It starts and runs now, but needs quite a bit of throttle to get started. It'll idle high and quite roughly, then idle will drop a bit and smooth out, before revving up on its own to 3000rpm+ before I shut it off. I've attached a PC Log. Sorry, but I had nothing to do with the ITB installation so can't guarantee that they're set up correctly.

I could only get the timing light on it when it was already idling high, and it was showing 15°btdc.

PC Datalog - 2023-04-7 6;09;47 pm.llgx

[castillaricardo]

If it's idling that high with 0 throttle and no IACV, then there must be an air leak somewhere or the throttles are opened too much. Have the ITBs been synced? Have you adjusted the idle screw?

As Adam said, you need a solid TPS signal. Your An Volt 2 (TPS) is showing 0.63V, but your calibration says closed voltage is 0.95V.

The log shows the ECU was commanding 32 degrees BTDC around the 3000RPM area, and if you're seeing 15 then you need to calibrate the trigger offset.

Do you have a Lambda sensor installed? If so, it isn't configured. 

[fast4motion]

9 hours ago, castillaricardo said:

If it's idling that high with 0 throttle and no IACV, then there must be an air leak somewhere or the throttles are opened too much. Have the ITBs been synced? Have you adjusted the idle screw?

As Adam said, you need a solid TPS signal. Your An Volt 2 (TPS) is showing 0.63V, but your calibration says closed voltage is 0.95V.

The log shows the ECU was commanding 32 degrees BTDC around the 3000RPM area, and if you're seeing 15 then you need to calibrate the trigger offset.

Do you have a Lambda sensor installed? If so, it isn't configured. 

I also suspected there's a vacuum leak, but thought I'd also get as much advice on the log file as possible on here before I get my mate (the owner) to take it away. I think the ITB's are second hand. They have thread locker on all the adjustment screws/stops which makes me suspect they've been synced in the past but not on this motor. I was supposed to just wire in the Link, which I've done, but have been roped into getting it running because he has no idea and I want the space back in my garage. I didn't even know he'd fitted ITB's until he dropped it off!

I should've clarified that the engine was probably around 1500rpm when I had the timing light on it showing 15°btdc. I was going to alter the trigger offset by 5° but it started revving before I had a chance.

There is no Lambda sensor.

I wondered about the TPS signal, because I calibrated it a few times, and each time it showed around 0.6V closed, while the calibration table showed 0.95V as you pointed out. But the Help Browser gave me the impression that the 0.95V figure is for an electronic throttle control. The TPS voltage has always increased smoothly and consistently when I depress the throttle. But the engine needs at least half throttle when cranking in order to start, or else it doesn't even attempt to fire. I'm not sure if this is an issue with the ITB's, or with the tune/software configuration.

[DerekAE86]

Things I've noticed - the MAP Delta is ALL over the place. It's not a nice signal at all.

This could be a big problem for a couple of reasons;
1) The Modelled fueling is referencing MAP rather than BAP. This would need a stable MAP reading to provide accurate fueling.
2) The IGN Table is currently tuned with MAP and without enough resolution around the required load points.
It's also idling at 95ish kPa which indicates a huge vacuum leak.

Engine fan has also been set to come on at 94deg. Seems very hot

Tacho max RPM is set at 0 - is the dash tacho working at all?

It's idling high because the IGN idle control is entering "lockout" mode because it's not configured correctly (500rpm above target, but target table is 0rpm). and so it's not applying any timing change to try and bring idle down so it's just falling back onto what the IGN table is set at.

But because of the vacuum leak the table is up in the 85-95kPA range. Which would normally indicate the engine is under load and wants more IGN advance.

[DerekAE86]

4AGE 16V AtomX COP_Modified.pclxYou can try using this file I've modified to fix up some of the issues.

But this obviously won't address the underlying vac leak problem and I'd be wary of incorrect fueling and timing due to the change from MAP to BAP fueling reference and MAP to TPS ignition table axis.

But it might be enough to get the thing out of your garage lol

[koracing]

Trying to make changes to fueling without a wideband is like stumbling around in the dark blindfolded.  I'm not sure why so many people seem to think a wideband is optional with engine management.

[fast4motion]

Thanks. I'll probably get him to take it home and sort out any vacuum leaks first, then see how it runs and also try that modified file. While I understand how all the ECU/engine sensors work, I have no experience in ECU tuning or configuring, or what values are to be expected for many parameters, so appreciate everyones advice.

The owner thought I could just wire in the Link and he'd be off driving perfectly on the base tune (with random ITB's). I had to convince him it'd need to be professionally tuned, but I was hoping the base tune would get it to a stage where it could at least be safely driven on/off a trailer. Hopefully this will still be the case once the vacuum issues and some settings are sorted.

I remember reading that setting tacho max to 0 RPM is the same as having no maximum. Tacho was working, so all good there.